Argonne nuts on diesel?

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by bwilson4web, Aug 24, 2010.

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  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Looking for Prius accident and crash data, I came across these articles:

    Car tour showcases diesel engines in 'greener' light :: The

    SouthtownStar :: News

    Now 'Green Car Journal' shares the pro-diesel attitudes of the "Green Human" sponsors of the notorious Portland-to-Portland 'test' but I had higher expectations from Argonne. Perhaps something else was going on.

    So I found this second article titled "All about green cars - and not just expensive ones" by Marni Pyke:

    The first paragraph of her story.

    What was most entertaining and somewhat worrisome were the seven comments. With one exception, correcting the body style as a Lotus design, they were critical and expanded to whack the Volt. Now these comments could be just a small group but the absence of any positive postings suggests an 'ill wind'.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #1 bwilson4web, Aug 24, 2010
  2. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    Bob

    Not sure if you have any experience working at DOE facilities like Argonne, Oak Ridge, Sandia, Livermore, etc

    These facilities actually have many sub-cores of competency, and as a reflection of early Cold War security (Compartmentalized information, need-to-know, etc) the different sub-cores really don't know what the others are up to

    One very small component of ANL is examining diesel cars because they have received various funding sources to do so. Ok, so what is the problem?

    ORNL received funding to literally reverse-engineer a 2004 Prius, and they had a generally favorable report about the car.

    The various DOE labs that formerly developed thermonuclear weapons, delivery systems, separation techniques, enrichment and reactor designs, are indeed highly political. This is true of anything associated with or funded by various governments

    If Obama were to announce that the "future" is clean diesel technology, you can bet the various former Cold War research sites would suddenly "preach the gospel" of that statement

    Just the way it is

    But let's wait for all the research to come out before casting judgement. These various labs have a solid cadre of engineers, scientists, and techs

    jay
     
    #2 jayman, Aug 24, 2010
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  3. dogfriend

    dogfriend Human - Animal Hybrid

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    Bob, you are going to drive yourself crazy and/or need to start drinking heavily if you are going to read the comments left on any 'net article or YouTube video. There is a collective stupidity that uses the internet as its own personal sounding board. :madgrin:
     
    #3 dogfriend, Aug 24, 2010
  4. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    Last time I checked with my liver, that was MY job
     
    #4 jayman, Aug 24, 2010
  5. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

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    Funny, but when I thought of potential liver donors you popped into my head. :eek:
     
    #5 F8L, Aug 24, 2010
  6. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    C'mon jayman ... share the weath :D

    Nothining wrong with cleaning up oil burnin' diesels so they pollute way less ... and nothing wrong with running 'em on french fry oil ... but it's still baffling to me. Oil has more energy per gallon than gas, and so when you factor in their 40-ish mpg's ... the generally higher cost of the refined oil that they run on ... I don't see what the big deal is. Aren't their mpg numbers a wash, once you factor all the variables in?
     
    #6 hill, Aug 24, 2010
  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I wish but multiple years of tracking diesel and Prius numbers in Fuel Economy have yet to show parity. Now we do see the 2010 Prius and Honda Insights have parity but the diesels are at best 90% of these hybrids and only if we use the manual transmission:

    1. 49.9 MPG (14 vehicles) - Honda Insight, automatic
    2. 49.1 MPG (100 vehicles) - Prius, automatic
    3. 44.8 MPG (10 vehicles) - Jetta TDI, manual
    4. 37.9 MPG (7 vehicles) - Jetta, TDI, automatic
    The automatic Jetta TDI is not even in the running. Only the Prius is a full size sedan and the others are compacts.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #7 bwilson4web, Aug 24, 2010
  8. don_chuwish

    don_chuwish Well Seasoned Member

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    Just curious, how about the emissions for the same four models? Especially emissions per mile given the mpg numbers quoted...
     
    #8 don_chuwish, Aug 24, 2010
  9. seftonm

    seftonm Member

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    Hi Bob, not sure I understand why you brought this topic up, but do you consider promoting diesels a bad thing? If the article gets somebody to try a Jetta TDI instead of a Jetta 2.5, or an A3 TDI instead of an A3 2.0T, then it has done us a favor IMO.
     
    #9 seftonm, Aug 24, 2010
  10. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    A couple of observations of my own.

    While have diesel cars been virtually banned in the US until about a year ago, yet in North Texas I see diesel doolies all over? You can be assured many of these trucks are NOT commercial vehicles. ;)

    Diesel may not be the perfect fuel, but is it worse than ethanol?
     
    #10 Chuck., Aug 24, 2010
  11. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

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    In my area a lot of general contractors purchased large F-350-type diesel pickups during the Bush era due to hefty tax breaks to stimulate small business. Sadly very few of these trucks saw any heady duty work. Instead they were shod with very expensive 24" wheels and used to house large stereo/video systems and tow ski boats to the lake or delta.
     
    #11 F8L, Aug 24, 2010
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  12. don_chuwish

    don_chuwish Well Seasoned Member

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    No no, don't misunderstand, I'm all for trying everything and seeing what shakes out as best. Last fall for example I was incredibly impressed with my daughter's new school bus - the diesel emissions control was so good I couldn't see anything coming out of the tail pipe. 2010 Emissions & SCR Technology of Thomas Built Buses
    I just think we need to keep an eye on the total price of all these choices. It's not just mpg, purchase price and total cost of ownership.

    - D
     
    #12 don_chuwish, Aug 24, 2010
  13. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    My concern was Argonne coming across as 'just diesel' and no hybrid. As for Green Car Journal, well a listing of their recent articles pretty well shows nothing but diesel advocacy, like "Green Human." The absence of significant, much less balanced, hybrid facts and data pretty well makes both groups into press releases by diesel manufacturers.

    Now there is a place where diesel makes sense, a lot of sense, but we don't see them . . . panel or light-duty, utility trucks. It is an area where a fuel-efficiency, tax credit makes good public policy.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #13 bwilson4web, Aug 24, 2010
  14. GreenCarJournal

    GreenCarJournal New Member

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    Bob, if you really think our posts at GreenCar.com are simply 'diesel advocacy' then you must not visit the site regularly. Articles on GreenCar.com, and in our print Green Car Journal, always present a balance between the vehicles, fuels, and technologies at play. The three most recent posts on clean diesel were timed to coincide with our Green Car of the Year Tour activity at Argonne National Laboratory, which largely had a clean diesel focus because our spotlight was on the Audi and VW 2010 and 2009 Green Car of the Year winners. The GCOY winners in the three previous years were hybrids.

    This brief snapshot of three recent postings does not reflect our historic approach to this field. Take a closer look and you'll see that most of the articles in recent months have focused on electric drive in one form or another, with some also discussing efficiencies, advanced internal combustion, and other alternative fuels.

    We do believe that clean diesel is an important consumer option now and in the years ahead, just as we believe that electric drive -- and possibly other alternative fuels -- are part of the answer. We are not advocating. We are educating because that is our mission.

    While clean diesel was the primary emphasis at this Green Car of the Year Tour at Argonne National Laboratory, Argonne's researchers also shared details with media about the depth of their work that included electric drive and other activities.

    By the way, the value of clean diesel is not just in commercial applications. Try driving a clean diesel passenger vehicle like the Audi A3 TDI or VW Jetta TDI and you'll see why. It may not be the vehicle for you, but it certainly has proven to be for many others, just as the Prius has proven the ideal vehicle for many thousands of buyers. We have always advised that people should get behind the wheel of the various vehicles that could fit their needs and environmental sensibilities...and then make the choice that fits best.

    That's not diesel advocacy. It just makes sense.
     
    #14 GreenCarJournal, Aug 24, 2010
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  15. LeadingEdgeBoomer

    LeadingEdgeBoomer Member

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    DOE funded a large program to develop cleaner diesel fuel and vehicles that use it--successfully. Argonne NL was a big player, so showcasing there makes sense. Castigating them for not doing everything simultaneously makes no sense--they do what they are funded to do. As mentioned, there are other Energy labs that pursue other cool things, including NREL.

    Today new diesel vehicles have hugely lower emissions, including, as someone mentioned about a school bus, no visible soot. But since diesel engines are very, very long-lived, the evolution to the technology will take time.

    In Europe, new-diesel passenger cars are very popular, and fuel is as available as gas. So every little town has a mechanic who knows what to do. If I lived there (in my dreams), I would consider one.

    There is no single Holy Grail, so let all these technologies contribute.
     
    #15 LeadingEdgeBoomer, Aug 24, 2010
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  16. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    True, my first attempt to scan the articles generated this table in my mind:
    Column 1 Column 2 Column 3 Column 4 Column 5
    0 hybrid diesel other Date and Title
    1 0 1 0 08/20/2010 Driving 5 000 Miles in Audi's A3 TDI . . .
    2 0 2 0 08/19/2010 A Better Larger 2011 VW Jetta TDI . . .
    3 0 3 0 08/17/2010 Clean Diesel: High MPG Low CO2 . . .
    4 0 3 1 08/14/2010 Audi A1 e-tron Extended Range . . .
    5 0 3 2 08/07/2010 Chevy Equinox Delivers High . . .
    6 0 3 3 08/05/2010 Mercedes-Benz Vito E-CELL . . .
    7 0 3 4 07/31/2010 Lightweighting Trend a Balance in . . .
    8 0 3 5 07/29/2010 Renault DeZir: Performance and . . .
    9 0 3 6 07/25/2010 Chevy Cruze Eco Delivers
    10 0 3 7 07/23/2010 Electric Smart Car to Go . . .
    11 1 3 7 07/18/2010 Kia Ray EcoDynamics Plug-In . . .
    12 1 3 8 07/14/2010 Mercedes-Benz May Produce . . .
    13 1 3 9 07/08/2010 Shuttles to Save 1.5 Million . . .
    14 1 3 10 07/06/2010 BMW to Introduce Carbon Fiber . . .
    15 1 3 11 06/30/2010 Aston Martin to Add Cygnet . . .
    16 1 3 12 06/26/2010 AT&T Fleet Strategy Includes . . .
    17 1 3 13 06/24/2010 GT3 Electric Car a Wild . . .
    18 2 3 14 06/19/2010 Porsche 911 GT3R Hybrid . . .
    19 2 3 15 06/13/2010 Electric Taxi Cab Gaining . . .
    20 2 3 16 06/12/2010 VPG Mobility Vehicle Features . . .
    21 2 3 17 06/06/2010 Volties X4 Offers Electric . . .
    22 2 3 18 06/03/2010 VanDyne Super Turbo . . . .
    23 2 4 18 05/26/2010 Daily Life with Audi's A3 . . .
    24 2 5 18 05/22/2010 Embracing Clean Fuels a Matter . . .
    25 2 5 19 05/20/2010 EV Range Anxiety . . .
    Source: Going Green | All Articles on Green Car

    I enjoy reading technology and throughly recommend GreenCarCongress.com because it surveys all technologies without advocating one over another. I can see a few similar elements embedded in the GreenCarJournal list of articles. But the GreenCarJournal list of articles going back to May 20, 2010 doesn't have much hybrid content compared to diesel. In fact, the diesel relates to one 'in hand' when we also know there is substantially larger numbers of hybrids in the USA market:

    Column 1 Column 2 Column 3 Column 4
    0 Toyota Prius 14 102 hybrid
    1 Volkswagen Jetta 3 570 diesel
    2 Honda Insight 1 858 hybrid
    3 Ford Fusion 1 586 hybrid
    4 Lexus RX450h 1 356 hybrid
    5 Toyota Camry 1 276 hybrid
    6 Ford Escape 1 134 hybrid
    Source July Dashboard report.

    No one has infinite resources and one TDI diesel may be all that your publication has time and resources to cover. I can understand that but when I look at the articles going back to May 20, I'm not seeing coverage of 'hybrids in anyones hands'. In fact the hybrid articles are about announcements. In contrast, the customers in July bought substantially more hybrids, and not just the Prius, in the USA Market.

    I know there are others who enjoy your publication and good for them. I tend to prefer a different style for the reasons listed above and before . . . facts and data.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #16 bwilson4web, Aug 25, 2010
  17. finman

    finman Senior Member

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    "clean diesel"...more green washing. Good...but not near as clean as a Prius. c'mon...the "smokescreen" is laughable.

    I can applaud the effort, especially in big trucks/buses/the like...but really, not as green...not even CLOSE, when passenger vehicles are compared.
     
    #17 finman, Aug 25, 2010
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  18. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Reflecting back on NASA, different centers have different areas of expertise. It makes a lot of sense that we are seeing the compression engine center in Argonne and to see the bigger picture we need to combine the results of all centers.

    Just a couple of points:

    1. diesel better than before does not make it hybrid equal - I've read the CARB reports on emissions and the TDI diesels are ~5x worse than hybrids. I don't follow gas car emissions so the diesels may be in the same or better rates than cars but they are not hybrid equivalent and 'less brown' comes to mind.
    2. endurance is more than the block and pistons - the emissions control systems like Blutec also have to endure as do the recently lamented, Honda Civic hybrid, that suffered a 4% battery replacement rate in California. But little is written about the Prius engines that are significantly derated due to the Atkinson and easy life of ON-OFF, hybrid cycles.
    Diesel has some unique characteristics and I would like to see more of them in the utility van market . . . panel trucks. Heck, I would have no problem with any vehicle having a GW greater than say 4,000 lbs or commercial use having policies to encourage a diesel or hybrid cycle. But trying to compare diesel to the Prius or for that matter the other Toyota, Ford and Toyota licensed hybrids just doesn't work. Worse it is toxic to their credibility. Had Argonne said, 'As a leading center in diesel technology . . .' I would have had no problem with their statements. But they kinda 'gilded the lily' about their role as advisors.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #18 bwilson4web, Aug 25, 2010
  19. donee

    donee New Member

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    Hi Bob, et al,

    I visited the Argonne Open House transporation tent. Talking with the various scientists and engineers, I think I did detect a bit of diesel leanings. But, also these guys are looking at the bigger transportation fuels issues, like ships, trains, and construction equipment (Case/IH is literally 5 miles from Argonne, and Catepillar is very big in Illinois, headquarted in Peoria, with production as close to Argonne as Aurora -25 miles), too.

    One guy was heavily working on how to steer the reaction radicals to minimize NOX. He had chains and chains of sub-reactions he was working with , he said. And with some work he was hoping to reduce NOX by steering the subreactions a certain way.

    Of course NOX is the big issue in making Diesels on parity with Prius fuel economy in the US.
     
    #19 donee, Aug 29, 2010
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  20. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I found the California Air Resources Board metric for the Prius and 2.0 L TDI diesels:

    http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2010/toyota_pc_a0140657_1d8_pz_hevge.pdf

    http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2010/volkswagen_pc_a0070285_2d0_u2_diesel.pdf

    http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2011/ford_pc_a0101592_2d0_l2.pdf

    Column 1 Column 2 Column 3 Column 4 Column 5
    0 1.8L Prius 2.0L diesel 2.0L Ford metric
    1 0.040 0.500 1.300 CERT CO [g/mi]
    2 0.003 0.050 0.060 CERT NOx [g/mi]
    3 0.002 0.040 0.060 CERT Hwy NOx [g/mi]
    4 the following are the standards
    5 0.010 0.055 0.090 @UL NMOG or NMHC STD [g/mi]
    6 1.0 2.1 4.2 STD CO [g/mi]
    7 0.020 0.070 0.070 STD NOx [g/mi]
    8 4.000 11.000 18.000 STD HCHO [mg/mi]
    9 0.010 0.010 0.010 STD PM [g/mi]
    10 0.030 0.090 0.090 STD Hwy NOx [g/mi]
    CARB data, thanks seftonm, added gasser.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #20 bwilson4web, Aug 30, 2010
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