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Does ICE spin over 43mph in EV mode?

Discussion in 'Gen 1 Prius Plug-in 2012-2015' started by adrianblack, Aug 14, 2010.

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  1. adrianblack

    adrianblack Member

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    Sorry if this has been answered, but I was wondering if the ICE spins (without fuel) when you go over 43mph in the Toyota PHEV Prius while in EV mode?

    I think the only way to be able to tell would be with a SGII... I know I cannot feel the ICE start to spin when coasting downhill and crossing the threshold. I just see the RPM on my SG to go ~975...

    And while I'm asking, has anyone looked at the AMP readings while in EV mode. Has anyone seen more than 120-130amps?

    Thanks :)
     
    #1 adrianblack, Aug 14, 2010
  2. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    Yes. It has too in order to keep MG1's speed at a safe level.

    Tom
     
    #2 qbee42, Aug 14, 2010
  3. linuxpenguin

    linuxpenguin Active Member

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    I don't think the PHV spins the ICE until 62 MPH...any confirmations?

    Andrew
     
    #3 linuxpenguin, Aug 14, 2010
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  4. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    PHV has higher limits. It could be 62 mph, but I don't know.

    Tom
     
    #4 qbee42, Aug 14, 2010
  5. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    In EV mode? No. It will go up to 65mph (as some reports have stated). The Prius PHV will default to EV mode until the two EV packs are discharged (hence the lack of an EV button).


    I assume (But can't confirm since I didn't pay attention) that in regular Hybrid mode, it'll act like a normal Prius so it'll have the 42mph engine limit.
     
    #5 Tideland Prius, Aug 14, 2010
  6. HTMLSpinnr

    HTMLSpinnr Super Moderator
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    It was determined that the limit wasn't as much to protect MG1 but rather to prevent the sudden inevitable power surge when the ICE does kick in at that speed. Given the larger inverter in the PHV, I imagine they solved the problem "somehow".
     
    #6 HTMLSpinnr, Aug 15, 2010
  7. adrianblack

    adrianblack Member

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    So it sounds like no one has managed to use a SGII in the PHV and we are all guessing? I do not think it is possible to tell by feel if the ICE is spinning or not when it is freewheeling at idle, so the only real way would be to use a SGII.

    Or perhaps Toyota had that MG1 can safely spin at 10,000rpm which should be good for highway speed with ICE off.

    The SGII will tell. If someone gets a PHV in Los Angeles, I will gladly bring my laptop and SG2 so we can really gather some hard data. :)
     
    #7 adrianblack, Aug 15, 2010
  8. adrianblack

    adrianblack Member

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    I hadn't heard the inverter was larger. Wish we had more details :)
     
    #8 adrianblack, Aug 15, 2010
  9. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    I think Evan confirmed it with SGII. You can check out this PHV Prius thread.

    He is on "around-the-world" tour so he may not be able to reply.
     
    #9 usbseawolf2000, Aug 15, 2010
  10. adrianblack

    adrianblack Member

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    I will have to go look at the threads more.

    In case anyone was wondering about the PSD on the Gen III vs Gen I car, the ratios are not the same. @37mph ICE off, MG2 spins at about 4300rpm and MG1 spins at -4300. Unlike the Gen I car, there is a 1:1 ratio on the MG1/MG2 relationship. 25mph and floor the accelerator on your Gen III and doing that will send MG1 to about 9500rpm. There is no 6500rpm RPM limit on MG1 on the Gen III car like there was on the Gen I....

    So on a stock Gen III if you could go 65mph on EV alone without ICE spinning, MG1/2 would each be spinning about 7700rpm. Within the limit of MG1, but what about MG2?

    Hmmm......
     
    #10 adrianblack, Aug 15, 2010
  11. Colonel Ronson

    Colonel Ronson New Member

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    IS the inverter larger? i read the toyota press report and they said the hybrid system was identical except for the batteries. A larger inverter would mean a totally revamped hybrid system than the normal Gen III. I remember reading that our inverters are capable of 80+ hp but it doesn't go up that high due to the power limitations. The higher EV top speed in the PHV is probably due to the same inverter receiving more power from the Li-ion batteries.
     
    #11 Colonel Ronson, Aug 15, 2010
  12. adrianblack

    adrianblack Member

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    Thanks for the pointer. I read through his thread entirely and yes, confirmed ICE off even at speeds of 65mph. Evan is a SGII novice so he didn't try AMPs or MG1/2 RPMs and such. But still cool info.

    And, like was said, in normal HV mode the car behaves exactly like a regular Gen III with the same characteristics. Interesting!
     
    #12 adrianblack, Aug 15, 2010
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  13. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Gen II and Gen III MG1 has 10,000 RPM max. That's why MG1 revved up to 9,500 RPM.

    Gen III has higher speed MG2 (6,400 ->13,500 RPM) than Gen II. Speed Reduction Unit (SRU) was used to slow it down and boost the torque. Remember, Gen III MG2 is rated at 153 lb-ft and SRU multiplies it by about 2X. The end result was smaller and lighter MG2 with more power.
     
    #13 usbseawolf2000, Aug 15, 2010
  14. adrianblack

    adrianblack Member

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    I've seen sustained 120amps on my Gen III while passing at highway speeds.... And that would be enough for 65mph EV speeds if you had the battery capacity. I have a feeling there is no change in any component other than the battery packs/charger/relays and software.
     
    #14 adrianblack, Aug 15, 2010
  15. adrianblack

    adrianblack Member

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    Ahh that's right. It's all making sense.

    Now I wonder if that recent PICC PHEV Gen III has an appropriate software hack to enable ICE off up to 70mph, like the Toyota system?

    And think of this: How hard would it be to convert a regular Gen III to PHV using Toyota parts? Hmmmm....
     
    #15 adrianblack, Aug 15, 2010
  16. Colonel Ronson

    Colonel Ronson New Member

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    well you would have to remove your spare tires to put the li-ion batteries. Then you would have to cut out a hole in the side for the charging port. Then you would have to update the ECU to use the software the PHV prius uses. I'd say pretty hard lol.

    I wouldn't hack the ECU to exceed the speed limit set for the EV-only mode. Anything higher than design will probably have too much battery drain and ruin the batteries. Plus idk if an electric motor would have the strength to drive a prius at 70mph...lol. It probably could, but that might be pushing the design limits. After all, Toyota designed their batteries to never drain out, especially on the gen III. Look at what Honda did? You could run down the battery if you wanted, and insight owners replace their batteries every 4 years lol.
     
    #16 Colonel Ronson, Aug 15, 2010
  17. ken1784

    ken1784 SuperMID designer

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    More precisely, the ratio is 2.6:2.636.
    The max EV speed is 100km/h (62mph).
    TOYOTA: News Releases > TMC Introduces 'Prius Plug-in Hybrid' into Key Markets
    At 62mph, MG1 spins about 7100rpm and MG2 spins about 7200rpm.
    The max MG2 speed is about 13000rpm at the max vehicle speed 180km/h (112mph).

    Ken@Japan
     
    #17 ken1784, Aug 15, 2010
  18. HTMLSpinnr

    HTMLSpinnr Super Moderator
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    Perhaps not "larger", but it is "different".

    The DC-DC converter was moved to the hatch within the battery module.

    There are two boost converters - one for the hybrid battery, and one for the two EV packs. There are also two separate high voltage DC inverter inputs - one for the HV battery pack, and one for the Sub1/2 packs.

    The boost converter takes 345.6V (up from 201.6V) up to 650V max.
     
    #18 HTMLSpinnr, Aug 15, 2010
  19. mitch672

    mitch672 Technology Geek

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    Watch the video on the Ewert Energy home page, they can indeed run a Gen III Prius to 70MPH on all electric

    They are comming out with the 12.5KW lithium conversion by the end of the year, this will be sold by PICC

    http://www.ewertenergy.com/

    They do spin the ICE without injecting fuel, that's how they manage to do it. I am seriously thinking of getting this conversion, versus bothering with a Leaf, most of my daily driving is under 40 miles (Ev capacity of the conversion kit)
     
    #19 mitch672, Aug 16, 2010
  20. adrianblack

    adrianblack Member

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    No, when you listen to their video, they say that over 43mph the ICE is spinning but with no fuel.... so that way the Gen II car is operating within normal specs, other than highly favoring the electric motor.

    Spinning the ICE does waste power since it's still sucking, pushing and compressing air.
     
    #20 adrianblack, Aug 16, 2010
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