Anticipated price for 2012 PHV prius?

OK, but somebody said that the ICE would never be able to fully re-charge the new Li battery. Fine. My question then becomes, how much does it charge it? How is the ICE re-charging regualted on the PHV? Does the ICE stop trying to re-charge the battery affter reaching 50% of capacity? Just asking.

 

I'm sorry, and I don't wish to sound rude, but everybody seems to be ignoring, or dancing around my question, which is -

When the PHV is run strictly in EV mode, and eventually depletes (to some pre-determined level) the battery charge...when the ICE comes on to re-charge...what level (of the total capacity of the battery) does the ICE re-charge to?? One person said the ICE was not capable of fully re-charging the much larger Li battery. Is that true? If it is capable of fully re-charging, then clearly the ICE has to run a lot longer to re-charge the larger battery.

The reason why I'm asking this, and why it came up is...some of the energy savings calculations seem to assume re-charging a completely depleted battery at night, from the grid. My point was, shouldn't one normally assume when you pull into the garage at night, that the battery on the PHV will be partially, or even fully re-charged from the ICE while driving home from work? if that's the case, the the 10 or 13 mile driving range is NOT all derived from energy siphoned from the grid, but some fraction of that energy has some from gas, used to drive the ICE, that is used to partially, or fully re-charge the Li bbattery...much like all hybrids.

As to your other comment about the energy draw just sitting in traffic.....I do know this...in the G3, it takes much, much less time than 40 minutes to deplete that battery down to 20% while sitting in traffic listening to the stereo and running the AC. I'd guess maybe 10 minutes, or so, to drop from 80% down to 20%, or when the ICE turns on. Exactly how long for the PHV, with larger battery, should be a simple relationship between the two capacities of the Ni and Li batteries....and assuming the Li battery re-charges within the same 20% to 80% ranges as with the Ni battery? I don't know that?

 

I'm sensing some confusion amongst PHV afficianado's. One says the ICE won't fully re-charge the battery (implying that the ICE does function in that capacity), while you say the ICE does not re-charge the Li battery at all. So, are you saying there are three separate batteries on the PHV??

- 12V battery used to start the ICE.
- the standard HV battery used on the G3 (or some variation thereof) and re-charged by the ICE.
- the new Li battery that's only used for EV plug-in mode, and is NOT re-charged by the ICE?

If the ICE does not re-charge the plug-in battery, then in order for it to operate (also) as a hybrid, then it has to have another battery that's serviced by the ICE. Right?

Are you sure the plug-in battery is NOT re-charged at all by the ICE?

 

By the way -

The reason why I'm asking this, and why it came up is...some of the energy savings calculations seem to assume re-charging a completely depleted battery at night off the power grid (ie lower energy costs than gas). My point was - shouldn't one normally assume when you pull into the garage at night, that the battery on the PHV will be partially, or even fully re-charged from the ICE while driving home from work? If that's the case, then the assumed 13 mile driving range is NOT all derived from energy siphoned from the grid, but some fraction (maybe a sizeable fraction) of that energy has come from gas that's used to drive the ICE, that is used to partially, or fully re-charge the Li battery...much like all hybrids. If that's the case, then the energy savings calculations are not what they appear to be at first glance.

I'm just trying to decipher out what the real energy savings might be (on average), and exactly where those energy savings are coming from , ie, the power grid, or gas?

 

I don't even know what this means? Are you saying the ICE is ONLY used to power the wheels? If so, baloney.

The battery on the G3 "rarely" needs re-charging? Is that what you are saying? If so, baloney - again.

Again, what?

True, as I just found out. It has two separate Li batteries. Same weight and volume as the conventional Ni battery? I just read that you will NOT be able to get the solar package and sunroof with the PHV...as you currently can with the G3. That makes me think there is some additional weight they had to shave off?

From test results, I do know this - the 0-60 mph times for the PVH are slower than the G3, and the 60-0 stopping distances are 10 feet longer than the G3. All this tells me there's more weight on the PVH, with respect to the G3.

But performance data on a car like this are secondary to it's primary function. That said, and as we all know Li batteries are far more expensive than the Ni batteries...it begs the question (which started this thread)...what's the added cost for all this:

Unlike the standard 2010 Toyota Prius, the PHV has lithium-ion battery packs instead of the usual nickel-metal hydride batteries. The three battery banks are under the rear seat, and a primary central pack is flanked by a sub-pack on either side. The main pack is reserved for normal hybrid operation; the two sub-packs power electric-only driving. Each of the three packs contains 96 battery cells, and the system is rated at 345 volts. (The configuration of this battery pack is still evolving, the Toyota engineers tell us, and this is unlikely to be the final form.)

Lithium-ion batteries are even more susceptible to temperature swings than nickel-metal hydride batteries, so the PVH Prius has no fewer than 42 temperature sensors to monitor the batteries, not to mention a separate cooling system for the battery area. The only signs of these measures within the passenger cabin are small vents under the backseat, but hidden inside are three fans that circulate air around the batteries just like the fan in your personal computer."



Yikes!

Nothing for free? Maybe where you live, but here in the States it's all free. LOL.

Since you seem to be telling ME what to do, or to read...perhaps you want to re-read what I wrote. But my question is now moot, since learning there are two (essentially) Li batteries in the PHV - one for EV only, and one for hybrid mode, that functions (as best I can tell), exactly like the hybrid battery on the G3...but made of Li. Same capacity?

 

Thanks. As per my previous post, I found this:

Unlike the standard 2010 Toyota Prius, the PHV has lithium-ion battery packs instead of the usual nickel-metal hydride batteries. The three battery banks are under the rear seat, and a primary central pack is flanked by a sub-pack on either side. The main pack is reserved for normal hybrid operation; the two sub-packs power electric-only driving. Each of the three packs contains 96 battery cells, and the system is rated at 345 volts. (The configuration of this battery pack is still evolving, the Toyota engineers tell us, and this is unlikely to be the final form.)

Lithium-ion batteries are even more susceptible to temperature swings than nickel-metal hydride batteries, so the PVH Prius has no fewer than 42 temperature sensors to monitor the batteries, not to mention a separate cooling system for the battery area. The only signs of these measures within the passenger cabin are small vents under the backseat, but hidden inside are three fans that circulate air around the batteries just like the fan in your personal computer."


I guess my only question (and getting back to what started this thread), after reading the above, and knowing that Li batteries are much more expensive...how much for all the added batteries and gadgetry. I think until we get closer to release time, nobody really has a good estimate. Although i can't see Toyota pricing the base PVH anywhere close to the existing base G3...even if they could.

I think after all the discussions and all (thanks), I'm going to buy a G3. I have enough issues/concerns about price, the effective MPGs of a PVH for my particular commute and lifestyle...to make me not want to wait another year just to find out it will be $6K-$8K more than what I can get a similar G3 for now. Besides, I read that the PVH Prius will NOT be available with solar and sunroof. The solar would be nice, but for me, having a sunroof is a must. I've never had a car that didn't have a sunroof, and I enjoy and use mine every day. And no, I'm not going to do an aftermarket and alter the structural integrity of the vehicle by cutting a hole in the roof. That's not an option.

Like every new technology, if I wait long enough, there will be something better just around the corner. Who knows, maybe when I'm ready to get another car for the wife, Toyota (or Nissan, or Honda) will have PVH that has double or tripple the range of the 2012 PVH Prius? And plug-in stations will be sprinkled about...at that point, as far as I'm concerned, the economic advantages of being able to plug-in at work, and at shopping malls, etc, etc...begin to make the plug-in, or all electric vehicles far more attractive to me, than they are right now. But we're not there yet, and hard to predict when we will be?

Cheers

 

Ditto.

The G3 will be a HUGE improvement from what I currently drive...so that's a win already...and if I can get ~ 66% (50mpg/75mpg) of the (effective) gas mileage of what I might get from a PVH, but for $5K-$8K cheaper, well, the decision to buy a G3 becomes more persuasive and I will wait out this next wave of new (PVH) technology. No doubt something much better/cheaper, as more and more car manufacturers jump into this market, will emerge in the next 3-5 years.

G3 it is. I'm shopping for one this weekend.