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She died on the road. (Anyone familiar with Capital Toyota in Landover, MD?)

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by JimboK, Jul 24, 2010.

  1. JimboK

    JimboK One owner, low mileage

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    I was coming off I-395 in Washington, DC when she lost power and all the warning lights activated. This happened as I hit a bump -- not a big one but noticeable -- but no symptoms beforehand. I'd been running for 2+ hours (temperatures 100F+) with no problems and no abnormality noted on CAN-View or ScanGauge readings.

    With that 2 hour trip I was 100 miles away from home. I got AAA to tow me to Capital, the closest dealer. I know nothing about them. Any experience with them among PC members?

    I'm on a business trip for a week-long class that starts tomorrow, so I had to rent a car to continue the trip. With no car rental shops close by, the service manager was gracious enough to give me a ride to BWI airport (he lives in Baltimore) where rental choices are plentiful. That speaks well of him of course. During our ride he told me he has two excellent Prius techs, both master technicians.

    I told them I wanted all the DTCs they pull and that I would seek advice from some of my respected colleagues (i.e., you) before committing to repair. The car has close to 73K miles, so unless it's a problem covered by the hybrid warranty, I'm footing the bill.

    Meanwhile, any speculation from my respected colleagues? Might the bump have suddenly jarred something loose that triggered the lights and shut it down, or is that more likely a coincidence?
     
  2. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Hi Jim,

    Do you recall exactly what warning lights and icons appeared on the dashboard and the MFD?

    I suppose you'll have to wait until Monday to find out what DTC had been logged. Good luck.
     
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  3. Rokeby

    Rokeby Member

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    Jim,

    Sorry to hear about your difficulties.
    A real bummer when away from home.
    Have no experience with dealers in the DC-metro area.

    When you say "lost power," do you mean lost all power and the car
    then drifted to a stop. Or, do you mean lost a significant amount of
    power but the car still had minimal propulsion to get to the side of
    the road?

    Any fluids leaking?

    If the symptoms are associated with the bump, I'd guess a lose
    electrical connection... (like that's a lot of help!)
    maybe only the gas cap came loose...
    probably not.

    Are you still in the vicinity of the dealer, or have you gone on and
    will have to deal with this over the phone/internet?

    At any rate, I hope the problem is quickly found and turns out to be
    simple and inexpensive to fix. Will be watching for further reports.
     
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  4. Bob64

    Bob64 Sapphire of the Blue Sky

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    Is that engine temp or inverter temp?
     
  5. JimboK

    JimboK One owner, low mileage

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    I made a note of the warning lights, but I don't have it in front of me at the moment. From memory, I know it was the triangle of doom, CEL, ABS light, traction control light, and light with the exclamation mark (I think) inside a circle. Also, after I coasted to a stop, powered down and back up again (in the faint hope it would instantaneously resolve), I noticed the fuel gauge bars and all the gear indicator letters (P, B, D, R, & N) flashing.

    When it first happened it felt like it lost all power. Because I was just getting off the highway I immediately shifted to N to be able to coast as far as possible out of harm's way. Frankly, I didn't think to see if it had any power after I stopped. My attention at the moment was on getting it towed, figuring out where to tow it to and wondering where that dealer fell on the broad continuum of competence that Toyota dealers seem to have, and figuring out how to arrange alternative transportation. After we reached the dealership, a technician was able to move it under its own power from the service lane to the back lot, though he observed substantial sluggishness.

    No leaking fluids.

    I too figured something electrical because of the lack of preceding symptoms and being associated with a jarring. Though I know loose gas caps can cause problems, I didn't think about that here; I had been 400+ miles on the current tank with no problems. Wouldn't that be something if that was the problem?

    I am at my destination (Emmitsburg), in the classroom as we speak, so I will be handling it over the phone.

    Which temperature? The temperature I mentioned was OAT. I didn't think to check engine, MG, or inverter temps while I was coasting down the road.
     
  6. Rokeby

    Rokeby Member

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    Jim,

    Another thought... actually a huge SWAG on my part...

    Considering the high Outside Air Temps, and the fact that your speed
    was dropping as you came off the beltway, -- less air through the
    radiator/engine bay -- it wouldn't be out of the question for an inverter
    coolant pump failure that occurred while underway in relatively steady-
    state conditions on the highway to finally be revealed.

    In this scenario, the jostling by the bump might just be coincidental, or
    it could have somehow moved overheated coolant past the system
    temp sensor.

    I know, not the kind of thing you wanted to hear. :(

    I can't explain why there would not be any indications of this on your
    Canbus or ScanGauge.
     
  7. firepa63

    firepa63 Former Prius Owner

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    Jim, you state that you had driven 400+ miles on the current tank. Are you sure you didn't just run out of gas? (WAG)
     
  8. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    I agree that an inverter coolant pump failure is the most likely. I also think that your 12V battery should be replaced now.

    The warning lights that you reported are consistent with the skid control ECU having a fit because of low voltage on the 12V bus. That happened because the inverter overheated and the DC/DC converter within stopped working.

    The fuel gauge bars blinking is further evidence that the 12V bus voltage was very low, probably because your 12V battery had almost no capacity to carry the load when the DC/DC converter stopped operation.
     
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  9. JimboK

    JimboK One owner, low mileage

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    That thought (the pump) occurred to me. During my ride to BWI with the service manager, I told him that the owner community had identified the inverter coolant pump as a weak spot, and that some of the more knowledgeable owners (I had Patrick in mind as I discussed this) recommended replacing it as a PM measure. I asked if he was familiar enough with this issue and the symptoms of failure to be able to speculate on this. He understandably was non-committal.

    If I was out of fuel then the fuel gauge was telling a big lie. It still showed 5 pips. Although my 100+ mile trip dropped my tank mileage considerably, it still was 60+ MPG.

    I replaced the 12V about six months ago as a PM measure. I know that doesn't rule out a problem with the current (Optima) battery, but at least it's not simply a matter of an aging battery.

    Let's assume an inverter coolant pump failure for a moment. Are you willing to speculate on the likelihood of an complete inverter failure (requiring replacement) as a result?

    Rokeby, you said that's not what I wanted to hear. If the inverter itself is cooked, that's better for me in one large sense because it will be a warranty replacement. I don't remember right off if the pump is also under the hybrid warranty. Patrick (or anyone else), can you tell me right off?
     
  10. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Hi Jim,

    Since you indicated that the tech reported sluggishness when the car was moved into the back lot after being towed, that implies continued impairment even after the car had a chance to cool down. Hence the inverter might be fried.

    The inverter coolant pump is covered under the 5 year / 60K mile powertrain warranty, per TSB EG001-07 which is the document that discusses the availability of an "improved" coolant pump. (The part number remains the same, so it's not obvious how one would distinguish an "original design" from an "improved" pump.)
     
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  11. Rokeby

    Rokeby Member

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    Jim,

    Presumably you've got some free time tonight. Hobbit gas an
    interesting discussion of the weaknesses on the old OEM pump bearings here.

    Patrick,

    Not to take any issue here, there has been at least one post suggesting
    that there is an updated pump with a new part number:

    This from: http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-ii-...erter-coolant-pump-takes-dive.html#post950852, post #100.

    Apparently, the OEM original part number was/is G9020-47030.

    Your thread on replacing the coolant pump] is clearly written and easy to follow...
    though I hope I never have to on my own. :p
     
  12. northwichita

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    I happened to read this web page today which described the new inverter pump base as silver, I will soon order a backup so I have a replacement on hand.

    "Toyota has updated the design of the replacement pump (part number G9020-47031) to solve the problem. You can tell the updated design from the original by the color of the mounting base (black is original, silver is updated) though late models with the updated design (silver base) have also experienced failures. Toyota has also issued a Technical Service Bulletin outlining the failure on 2004, 2005, and 2006 Prius: TSB EG001-07. "

    from (halfway down the page)
    Luscious Garage | Blog | Luscious Tire Service
     
  13. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Thanks, you are right and my "how to" post (cited in your post #11 above) also lists the current part number G9020-47031.
    Well, I don't know if this is correct because the original pump from my 2004 had a silver base. See last photo of my "how to" post.
     
  14. JimboK

    JimboK One owner, low mileage

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    Yes, I've read that. He and Patrick are largely who I was thinking of when I mentioned the "owner community" referred to previously.

    I do have some free time tonight, but since I'm already familiar with Hobbit's piece I think I'll spend my time in the on-campus pub. ;)

    Many thanks to you, Patrick, and the others for your feedback on this, BTW.
     
  15. JimboK

    JimboK One owner, low mileage

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    Oh, and an update on this:

    I've checked my note, and it turns out my memory was complete and accurate.
     
  16. Rokeby

    Rokeby Member

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    Jim,

    you're most welcome for what help I may have given.

    Ever since I joined PC in Jan '08, there has been a constant trickle of
    postings about inverter pump failures. What has held my interest is
    that it frequently happens well before the recommended replacement
    at, IIRC, 100K miles; 60K, 70K, as in your case.

    I suppose, as Hobbit noted in his piece, that it is more a function of total
    hours in Ready, whether the car is moving or not. After all, the pump is
    running whenever the car is in Ready.

    Long ago I decided to replace the pump at 80K miles...
    if it lasts that long. :confused:

    Now, even though I don't see much stop-and-go or stopped-in-traffic
    driving, I'm thinking I should bump the replacement to 70K miles...
    better safe than stranded...

    Sorry that you got blind-sided...

    If in fact this is what your problem is.
     
  17. JimboK

    JimboK One owner, low mileage

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    For Rokeby (and anyone else in the DC/MD area): I just noticed on the service advisor's business card that Capital Toyota is a division of Toyota of Bowie. Does that sound familiar?

    Meanwhile, no call from the dealer yet.
     
  18. 2009Prius

    2009Prius A Wimpy DIYer

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  19. 2k1Toaster

    2k1Toaster Brand New Prius Batteries

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    Sorry to butt in here, but is a general "sluggishness" caused by an overheating inverter, which inturn could lead back to a bad or failed inverter pump?

    I have noticed on occasion (twice in 5 months) that my car will under modest to heavy acceleration studder, almost like the VSC kicked in but no lights, for about 2-3 seconds then resume as normal. I have done 15,000miles+ in this time and it has only happened twice, but assuming those two times were heating issues, then perhaps it would be wise to check and/or replace the inverter pump?

    Ideas?
     
  20. JimboK

    JimboK One owner, low mileage

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    Wow, wish I had known about that web site before my breakdown! I have AAA Plus which would have provided up to a 100-mile tow. I probably would have had it taken to the top-rated dealership which, being in Frederick, is considerably closer to where my class is and probably would have avoided the need for a rental. Where were you when I needed you? :)

    What makes you say "poor"? I see a 2.7 rating which, on a five-point scale, admittedly can be better but it's not dismal.