Drill, baby, drill,,oops!

Yep, which will take a LONG time to do at those depths. You probably noticed that most of the technical slides referenced Sperry technology, they developed a lot of the position reference systems based on their work with ICBM and other missile guidance systems

Yes poor old BP never seems to catch a break

The reason is entirely political

 

It looks like another structure is over the cap, Skandi ROV2.

Also, the spillage at the cap is much reduced. S*cks less.

Bob Wilson

 

What's the difference?

There is none

 

Something needs to be done, but that's not a solution. The last two US administrations resorted to the "throw 100s of billions at it" for whatever they thought the problem to be solved was. (IRAQ, TARP, Stimulus Package, etc.) We are no better off, that's for sure. The other issue is that last time oil prices shot up, critical food shortages suddenly appeared in Haiti and other poor countries. I don't want an answer that leaves millions starving. To me, the only viable answer has the following characteristics:
1) It has to be economically motivated. Lot's of little things can be done to help this happen, and some already have.
2) It has to come from the ground up. Looking or expecting any political party to make this happen is the wrong place to look. It has to be families and individuals making lifestyle changes, one person at a time.

Have you ever actually talked to someone who has been in Africa trying to address starving populations. If you have, you would find out it is a rebel/political/genocidal/land-grab issue, not a shortage of food issue. Usually the food cannot get delivered due to the conveys being stopped, raided, and destroyed. While it might be nice to think the problem can be solved with "energy sources" and education, the systematic corruption, ethnic cleansing, and bad disease issues would need to be solved first.

Please understand that I hold you in high regard. Your setting an example to me that I am trying to follow. So this is not a post to belittle you in any way. I am pointing out that the core problems are extremely difficult, interconnected and cannot be solved easily.

 

There are, however, parts of Africa that do not lend themselves to permanent occupation, at least without steady importation of food. The indigenous people of these areas were historically migratory, moving with available food and water. Modern political boundaries make this mostly impossible, so now people living in these areas suffer recurring famine.

Corruption, wars, and political unrest add to the problem. In many other areas, corruption, wars, and political unrest *are* the problem. Africa is a big continent. It doesn't lend itself to one-size-fits-all comments.

Tom

 

True that one comment does not fit all, but the point was worth making.

 

Most of the tax cuts expire this year. They were passed using a trick that claimed their expiration meant they were part of a balanced budget.

Bob Wilson

 

Shoot, I enjoyed it. Honest differences are fun to discuss. It's worthwhile to figure out the reasons for different viewpoints. So....

Yes, I agree fully and completely that big changes are necessary. My viewpoint is the vast majority of the population will not make changes without their being something forcing the changes at the individual motivation level. Something that economically motivates them to change. I'm pretty convinced resource usage reductions are not going to be voluntary, nor achieved with some overarching government policy or party.

As far as the stimulus package goes, I think we are in sync actually. Paying for infrastructure is a responsibility of government, but only when properly paid for.

It remains to be seen if TARP actually did anything good long term. I'm far from believing that it did. The government paying full price for worthless securities is going to come back and haunt us. It's just a matter of time. Germany and France can bail out the Greeks and other southern European Countries. The US can bail out all the industries "too big to fail". But who bails out the USA once US securities become unprofitable?


So the core issue boils down to how do you make the larger society change? Needs to be a new thread.

 

Taxes.

Artificially inflate the price of gas to 3 or 4 times what it currently is. That hits people where it counts, the wallet. Even that will make the Prius seem like a gas guzzler and the technology and motivation to implement it will skyrocket.

 

That would be a good source of income. But two problems:

1) Not going to happen in the USA. One of the consequences of living in a democracy. The price ripple effect would find it's way into everything built in the USA, ensuring sending more business overseas.
2) The money would be spent on something other than sustainable energy. (Very much like Florida's Lottery Money "paying" for education....yeah right.) Leaving us right back where we started for the most part.

I think that there are better ways.

 

A local tax wouldn't do it, because it would have the same effect as many environmental laws - business will simply move to where there aren't any. Plus, a tax would be resented as artificial, and it's not likely governments would be trusted with the funds. But if our economic system somehow recognised true costs, and everybody played by the same rules, that would change things. Knowing what things really cost in terms of footprint would influence consumer behaviour. We've discussed 'foodprint' before - even a CO2 sticker on a piece of fruit would help us make more informed decisions.

 

I agree, and I think it goes much deeper. We are literally consuming the earth - our entire economy is based on destroying the environment. It comes from our definition of profit - life's essentials are deliberately excluded. Consider logging as a hastily picked, perhaps inadequate example: the logger makes money, the mill makes money, the truckers make money, paper sellers make money, but somehow the tree is not a party to the transaction, nor are the benefits it provides while alive. Clean air, water, and soil are vital for all of Life and should be thought of as infinitely valuable, yet their 'value' to our economic system is zero. Money and Mother Nature are diametrically opposed.

 

Taxes can promote destructive behavior just as well as promote good behavior. Forcing all our industries to overseas locations that ignore any environmental costs could easily reduce oil consumption in the USA and greatly increase coal burning in China. This results in an overall worst situation. "Sane Policy" is the obvious goal, but very hard to figure out.

That said, I do agree that a lot of obvious and hidden subsidies are causing a lot more harm than good. Each of these must be addressed one by one if any progress is to be made. It's amazing how many loopholes can be exploited anytime a significant legislative change takes place, so I'm really leery of quick fixes.

Democracies have feedback loops that toss out ANY administration seen as not focusing on jobs and the economy. That s*cks, but that is the way things work politically. None the less, something has to be done. This is why I keep stressing the grass roots level. PriusChat has done more to improve my sustainable goals than any president, taxes, or administration ever will. Likewise, I influence those around me more than any president, taxes, or administration.

Economics as an academic/political science promotes a lot of questionable assumptions. Economics as social barometer is quite accurate. The economics I refer to is the latter. If I tell someone that they need to change their lifestyle to save the planet, I'm (correctly) perceived as an out of touch tree hugger. If I tell someone I have saved enough gas and repairs to make my Prius cost less than their car, then I get attention. The same is true of conservation of everything else. The "I save so much more money than you and live so much nicer than you" does have a long term effect. Few ignore that truth, once they understand it.

 

BP engineer called doomed rig a 'nightmare well' - Yahoo! News talks about the shortcuts BP took and it being labeled a "nightmare well".

It's really too bad the prior high gas prices and this environmental catastrophe still haven't swayed this guy who wants to buy a used Hummer H2 :Cry:: Talk me out of buying an H2 hummer - MY350Z.COM Forums. I've posted a bunch of arguments, steering mostly clear of global warming (since most of those guys will poo-poo it, saying it's bogus) but no effect, yet.