Nissan Leaf vs Prius

"Under the California Emissions Warranty, all emissions related parts are covered for 3 years or 50,000 miles*, and a vehicle-specific list of more expensive emissions related parts is covered for 7 years or 70,000 miles*. In addition, the 8 year or 80,000 mile* coverage for the catalytic converter and engine control unit required by Federal law also applies. Also, some 2003 and later models, certified as California Partial Zero Emission Vehicles (PZEV), have 15 year or 150,000 mile* emissions warranties essentially covering any component that causes the Check Engine Light to illuminate."

I am unclear why the Leaf would need to qualify as a PZEV, are there times it does emit any of the gases CARB monitors? What parts would be 'emissions related parts' in an electric car? (Why would it even have a Check Engine light?)

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/levprog/cleandoc/clean_2009_my_hev_tps_12-09.pdf
If you search this document for '150' you will only find it in relation to PZEVs, not ZEVs.

 

Will not purchase Nissan Leaf for following reasons:

A. Early adopters often acuire first problems.
B. French manufacturing origins not confidence inspiring.
C. Nissan is a good dealer network in Central Florida but not as comprehensive as say Toyota for service and location...
D. No one but Nissan will know how to fix it.
E. Its Carbon proposition is not yet substantiated. Need to know more about the ultimate chain of custody on those Batteries...
F. It is truly hideous...mobs with torches will chase you through parking lots.

 

Luckily Penny's Dad, Nissan will sell all of the Leaf's they can make, even though you will not be buying one Not every car is for every person or works for them, but as they say, EVs won't work for everyone, just %80-%95 of the population (Quote from Ed Begley Jr)

 

What manufacturing of the Leaf is being done in France? I agree there is financial ties to France, show some actual French parts, technologies, suppliers, anything.

The Aztek had a 5 year production run, it only seems like longer.
[IMGLINK]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/2001-Pontiac-Aztek.jpg/800px-2001-Pontiac-Aztek.jpg[/IMGLINK]
The AMC Pacer had a 5 year production run, thankfully they have almost all rusted away.
[IMGLINK]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/AMC_Pacer_DL_coupe_1979_two-tone_brown_ext.JPG/800px-AMC_Pacer_DL_coupe_1979_two-tone_brown_ext.JPG[/IMGLINK]

Both were all American designs you can't even blame on the French.

 

I think the only way to normalize is to look at what the price would be from Toyota, and not some 3rd party - that could be too variable, and have no idea about quality control, or warrenty. That said, I'm mainly interested in just the price of the battery.

You mine and refine Li? Really?

Otherwise, your experience may not be compeletly relevant. Just because I am one type of engineer, does NOT make me an expert (by any stretch of the imagination) in all facets of my profession.

Finally, this is, after all, the internet...and people claim and make up stuff just to support their position, so sorry, without links/facts, I don't believe a lot of what I read on here. In afct, much of the stuff I read about EV's is a lot of hype, and very little substance.

 

Maybe in his world, as it is in mine...and many other's, the EV comes up short. Why do you folks find this so hard to accept that many of us have different criteria, and factors that are NOT the same as your's. Your position sounds pretty much like the devout Catholic neighbor of mine who's always trying to shove HIS religion down my throat.

 

hahahaha...debunked in post #240.

 

So are you saying someone with experience in a related field has no more knowledge about that field than someone without that experience??

 

This is true, but then again, when was the last Government, or DoD forcast right? LOL. Anybody?

 

Nice spin, but wrong. Try again. I'm sure you can figure out what I meant.

 

Already debunked.

Many, many different studies have shown - the amount of CO2 emiited from fossil fuel power plants (the VAST majority of plants in this country) used to generate the electricity used to re-charge the EV battery, is essentially equivalent to the amount of CO2 I put out from operating my Prius. No more, but essentially, no less - either.

Sorry, but the pollution produced while generating the electricity needed to power the EV is often ignored in the EV equation. We call that "an inconvenient truth". Nissan loves to tout the "zero emissions" (which it is), but conveniently fails to mention that unless you're getting your electricity from solar, hydro or wind (not many are), that part of the total pollution equation is what's generated at the power plant? This numer represents the overwhelming majority of Americans.

 

Nope. Au, sorry (why are we talking in chemical symbols?)
Barrick Gold Corporation - Goldstrike gold mine in Nevada

Which is an odd attitude , as I keep citing my sources and you don't.

 

Just a note to remind you that Ozone and CO2 are not synonyms.
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone]Ozone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide]Carbon dioxide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

Why do you ASSUME (do you know what ASSUME means? ), that the electrical grid is not going to change? the entire center of the country may eventually produce a massive amount of wind power, in the nevada/arizona/california desert areas, large Solar PV and other forms of solar harvesting projects are in the planning stages, or in actual construction. The grid over time is going to keep getting greener, and with it, the EVs that get charged from it will be as well. The same is not true of gas/hybrid vehicles, they get no benefit from cleaner power generation. There are initiatives in almost every state to provide more green power, and many states have mandated percentages going forward for each year, and they are only increasing.

 

Sources about li scarcity?

Gee, I thought for someone with your background this would be well known, and references not needed.

Lithium: The Pinnacle of Battery Technology? | Green Energy News

From a "greeen" source, no less:

"The real downer for lithium is its scarcity. It’s the thirty-first most abundant element on the planet. Its rarity, at the moment, will keep raw material prices, thus battery prices, high unless more is found. This is not meant to be discouraging news however. When oil was first discovered in Pennsylvania in the 1800’s it’s likely that geologists at the time under-predicted how much there was on the planet."

A far less biased source:

Minerals at Risk and for Emerging Technologies

"Examples include lithium for a new generation of hybrid car batteries and tellurium for solar power cells. With the variety of new technologies being pursued, investors and consumers need to be aware of any potential short- and long-term impediments to the supply of necessary mineral raw materials. In the case of lithium, rising lithium prices would, over the long run, signal to the market the relative scarcity of lithium, but this process could be shortcut by a sober assessment of known resources and prospects for adding to those resources - an assessment that might lead to a shift to a battery technology that uses more abundant resources."



When you find a better, cheaper substitute for Li, please let me know as I would like to invest.




No Looming Lithium Shortage For EV's - All Cars Electric

"As demand for lithium for laptop, cell phone, and now vehicles batteries has soared, prices of lithium carbonate, a raw material used to produce lithium, have more than doubled since 2004. The greatest existing lithium carbonate deposits occur in Chile, Argentina, Bolivia and China, with other countries holding only tiny fractions of the world's known supply. Nevertheless, many financial analysts who have done studies on the outlook for future Lithium production say that worries about scarcity are overblown.

In 2008, Meridian International Research, a renewable-energy think tank in France, concluded that the world does face a shortage when vehicle demand is added to considerable consumer electronics demand. Estimates of global reserves vary, and Meridian is putting the number at 4 million tons rather than the 20 million cited by many of the more sanguine reports. With this figure in mind, William Tahil who authored the report for Meridian, says that while increased production can keep pace with EV production of a few million units per year, there is an insufficient supply to accomodate the wholesale conversion of the entire world's auto industry from internal combustion engines to battery-powered electrics.

"There's enough for a niche market," Tahil says, "but nothing close to enough for the mass market."


But the bottom line is - even as new sources for Li are discovered, the chances are very real that as per the doubling of li prices from 2004 to 2008, prices of li will continue to climb.

 

OK, and coal-fired plants don't produce any? LOL.

Electricity and Ozone (smog) and fine particulates

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Ozone is not emitted directly into the environment. It is produced by a complex chemical reaction when nitrogen oxides (NOx) and volatile organic compounds (VOCs) react in the presence of sunlight. NOx is produced when cars and trucks, electric power plants and industrial processes burn fossil fuels. VOC's are unstable and easily-evaporated organic compounds present in vehicle exhaust, paint fumes, and industrial process waste. The interaction between these two chemicals create ozone pollution, the primary harmful ingredient in urban smog. [/SIZE][/FONT]


However, I think most environmentalists who subscribe to global warming, would say that CO2 emissions is a far bigger problem.