3 Words to Describe the Prius PHV Test Drive: "I Want One"

Think of resale value as well as resale market. 13 miles PHV is useful to most ppl. If you sell 40 miles PHV, there are less potential buyer (around 40 miles commute) willing to spend more.

 

See guys, you'll have to forgive me for not being jealous / envious of this new PHV coming from Toyota. My 2005 Prius already does all this with my PHEV conversion system from Plugin Conversions (www.pluginconversions.com for those who are not familiar).

I can already go up to 70 MPH in EV mode (that's in a legitimate EV mode mind you, none of this "if I press the pedal just right and cross my fingers" warp-stealth nonsense) for 15+ miles on a full charge. Granted, it's not all that practical since the overall acceleration is restricted but hey, it's cool. If I'm not feeling like doing the trip in all EV I can always allow the gasoline engine to provide additional power beyond the electric capabilities of the vehicle (similar to the mode Danny was describing in his write-up where the gasoline engine kicked in when he punched the pedal to provide extra power).

The only benefit for a Toyota OEM PHV system seems to be better integration with the vehicle and more electric acceleration power. For my purposes and driving, my needs are already met using the technology that is available today (and has been for some time).

I'm certainly glad that there is a lot of interest generated by the new PHV coming out--but 2012 is a long time to wait when this same technology can already be purchased (mind you, I am referring to the higher end PHEV conversion systems, not the cheap systems). Yes, they are an investment--but they're available right now (for Gen2 Priuses anyway).

Andrew

 

Great article.
Also, with a 40 mile PHV that's another 400 pounds of batteries?

Since a mpg value is sort of moot. It would be interesting to see a mpkwh (or kwh/km ;-) value.

 

What's the cost to convert? How long does it take? In your opinion, what are the pro's and con's?

 

The costs vary based on which conversion system you choose, but the legitimate conversion systems are $10,000+. As I said, it's an investment that will not likely ever repay itself--but hey, it's pretty awesome to drive your car around without burning gasoline. Plus, people drop all kinds of money on things like leather seats and sun-roofs that will never repay themselves either. This actually enhances the value of the vehicle and does partially pay itself back.

The pros are pretty clear--fantastic mileage, ability to sneak up on people in silent mode (not that I've ever done that...), reducing dependency on foreign oil, reducing overall emissions (NOTE: NOT ALL CONVERSIONS REDUCE EMISSIONS. Some lower-end conversion systems actually INCREASE emissions because EV mode is misused and ends up terminating the engine warmup sequence prematurely), etc. The system in my car entirely replaces the OEM Prius battery pack with a much larger capacity battery thus eliminating any warranty issues associated with the old HV battery (eliminating in the sense that you're getting a brand new battery protected by a new warranty).

The cons are that it does cost quite a bit to have it done right. You can get these cheap systems on the market for half the cost but you get what you pay for. I've seen upwards of 160 MPG with my system during normal driving over a tank--the cheaper systems typically yield closer to 70 MPG unless you do some really funky things while driving.

I have the Plugin Conversions (PICC) system in my car as mentioned above. It uses the Hybrid Energy Manager from Ewert Energy Systems (www.ewertenergy.com) to allow for the 70 MPH EV mode and such. You can get more information about the overall conversion system if you're interested at www.pluginconversions.com. Alternatively you can PM me--I've had several different systems in my car.

Andrew

 

I have a similar situation.
I would like to be able to drive EV from my house to the freeway, then drive the freeway in normal hybrid mode (gasoline), and then switch it back into EV mode when I exit the freeway and drive the streets to my work. (and same concept for my drive home).

 

I think part of it is that Toyota already has such a huge stake in Nickle Metal technology (factories, research, deployment, etc) to just up-and-switch all together. My guess is it makes the most economical sense for them to phase lithium in over time (as they appear to be doing).

If done properly, a lithium battery pack should have a significantly higher efficiency rating than the current NiMH setup. This should make up for the extra weight and then some. I'll bet that Toyota has something up their sleeves that they aren't telling us...

Andrew

 

Perhaps it was from http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-hybrid-news/73267-jp-2010-prius-plug-in-price-5-250-000-yen.html which did NOT have any US prices.

 

Danny, if the plug in has regen disabled then that could be why. Which is a real shame as you would hope that with the higher transfer available to the Lithium batteries you should be able to get even more Regen - especially from higher speeds.

I think Toyota are looking at what the market will bear in terms of cost. Lithium batteries are very very expensive - I think it makes total business sense to stick with NiMH for the "basic" hybrid models.

Thanks for the article and podcast. Very encouraging.

 

Perhaps you missed this. PHV Prius price range is wider than the Prius. Remember there is $2,500 tax credit for 5kWh pack. They said the price is not final yet. I hope Leaf price announcement bring it down.

 

Wait, is this speculation or hard fact that they disabled regen during PHEV mode? That would be completely absurd...Lithium can certainly handle regen--especially given that the voltage is significantly higher than a non-PHEV Prius (345v instead of 201v). All this talk about how NiMH is more powerful than Lithium simply isn't true (I should say, properly implemented lithium). Cheap lithium has a really high internal resistance which could limit powerful regen, but if they took the time and developed a higher power lithium chemistry then they should have no trouble with this.

I'm going to go out on a limb and cry myth here unless someone has definitive proof otherwise...With a 5.2kWhr pack they would /have/ to have some regen in order to get 13 miles of range as regen is such an integral part of any hybrid system.

Andrew

 

Owning a Prius and a Leaf would be ideal! Thanks for the info.

 

Imagine the scenario where you reach to the top of a hill and p1 and p2 is done. PHV Prius switches to normal hybrid mode with the main pack (mp) and it is still full. You go back down the hill and regen can no longer charge mp. PHV Prius will not switch back to p2 or p1 to charge them. I believe this is the concern Danny raised.

If 1 PHV pack (out of 3) can provide full power in EV mode, it should also be able to regen fully.

 

Hmm...well that just seems silly to me. With the packs split up like that you lose the boosted efficiency rating that you would get if they were all paralleled together--and apparently you also lose some regen area...

Regen should never be wasted as long as you have space in the battery (batteries) for it. That seems like a pretty cardinal rule for getting better range...

Andrew

 

To clear up some of the bad information on the Chevy Volt I have seen on this thread:

1. The Price of the volt is going to be $40,000. A GM Rep just said this on the news a few days ago. Plus you'll get $7,500 tax credit.
2. The Volt "IS" going to be built. GM's future depends on it, and they know it.
3. The Volt will get 50 mpg in charge-sustaining mode, which is darned close to a Prius.

Keeping that in mind, the PHEV Prius had better be significantly cheaper than the volt in order to get customers. The only advantage I can see Toyota might have is that the Volt and Leaf will be hard to get the first year or two due to high demand and limited production.

I would point out, that although I plan to buy a Leaf, a PHEV Prius with 13 mile range would probably work for me since my daily commute is about 12 miles. But that could change and I might have to go 20 or 30 miles per day and then I'd be better off with a different vehicle.

 

GM has a future? That is news to many on this board. In reality, they should already have gone chapter 13 and been gone from earth, a distant memory of a past great american company. I'm willing to bet they mess up again, and keep screwing the pooch; it's just their nature.

P.S. I have owned many GM vehicles in the past, 1990 GMC Vandura, 1980 Chevy C10 van, 2001 GMC 3500 Suburban, and still own a 1994 GMC Suburban I use for plowing (that I got really cheap since it has 145,000 miles on it), nothing wrong with GM, they just "missed the boat", and others have stepped up.

 

Question: if you never plug in the Prius PHV can the engine recharge completely the batteries like on the current Gen3? or the batteries can be completely recharged only when plugging it in?
I see the PHV acceptance in Europe to be pretty low - all those living in apartment blocks (a lot!) will not be able to plug in the car anywhere, unless property management allows the build of a plug for a dedicated parking space (very remote possibility). And this, if you have a dedicated/assigned parking space. In shared garages, often plugs are not available. A change in the electricity distribution would have to be made.
Therefore, if the Prius PHV cannot be fully recharged with the engine alone (and in that case who knows what the MPG would be), there are not going to be too many people in EU able to plug the car at home. Or elsewhere, for that matter.
If the Gen3 got a higher capacity battery (within the same space/weight) it would probably achieve even better fuel economy, without changing absolutely anything else. It would be wonderful if Toyota would offer an upgrade for a higher capacity battery, maybe lease it in exchange of your older one. Dream on...

 

I think Toyota is handling the development and marketing of Prius PHV in a fantastic manner. Really makes me believe they have learned from recent mistakes. I'm sure it disappoints a lot of people to hear that Toyota doesn't plan to offer PHV until 2012, but first of all that's a lot closer than you think. Less than 2 calendar years...well at my age you start to realize what a really short time that is, it's practically on the market now!

Toyota has invested a lot into Hybrid's and they can't afford to not do this right. I'm glad they are taking their time and testing. IMO, it's often not who's first, it's who's best. Currently Toyota offers the best Hybrids available and I certainly think it sounds like they are heading in the right direction with PHV.

Even though I realize that by the time production is actually reached specs might change, as presented I really like what I hear. For me, a drawback of current Hybrid technology was the penalty involved if you use your vehicle for numerous short trips. For me a pure electric 13 mile range would be nirvana.

We will have to see how things shake out, but I personally like the idea of a rechargeable hybrid that offers robust EV performance for 13 miles and then "morphs" into a full and still economical "regular" Hybrid more than I like the idea of a 40 mile range but then it becomes a full gas vehicle. (I'd like it even more if Toyota could find a way to bump that 13 up to 20) But in anycase, despite the fact that I know a lot of people would want plug in Prius tomorrow, I think Toyota is being wise. Rapid and unbridled growth has actually hurt Toyota. I think their approach here reflects a recommitment to research, development and ultimately wanting to offer the best product possible. From what I'm hearing it sounds like they are heading in the right direction.

Toyota in the past has been sucessful not by necessarily being first, but by ultimately being the best. In the end, most consumers want the best product.