Nissan Leaf vs Prius

I am glad that one won't be forced upon you.

Based on... any sort of supporting evidence? Based on the Prius EPA numbers that area always being trotted out and disputed?

Wow. Really? The headlights? Have you thought about how much the headlights draw realtive to traction power? I don't enjoy sounding like a prick... and I also don't suffer ignorance lightly. Why bother commenting on a subject you know nothing about?

Do motorcycles make sense? Sport cars? Trucks? RVs? I guess it would depend on what you were using the vehicle for, yes? It turns out that there are a number of us who have used a 100-mile range car as our primary vehicle for better than ten years. For more than 90% of our automotive trips, the EV makes way more sense than our Prius does. Having to burn gasoline just to drive to the next town is what makes no sense to me. Of course just pushing a multi-thousand pound vehicle down the road just to transport one bag of protoplasm is the most pathetic thing we all do....

 

darelldd, some people are never going to "get it", and it's best to just not worry about them. Nissan will still never be able to meet the demand, even with the nay sayers, so no worries. At least you are in the West, and will (and already do) have access to a lot of public charging infrastructure (I've linked to your website many times here on Priuschat, thank you). I see even the COSTCO's out your way have charging stations... Luckily you will also get the benefit of the "EV project" for even more Leaf charging stations. I am hoping Nissan will sell some "out of market", but it doesn't look like it will happen until sometime in 2011.

I am already working on getting my electrician buddy to change out my meter, for a combined meter/panel (CSED), so I will have some breakers (most of them can handle 4 2 pole breakers) for the 40AMP Leaf charger, and also for the (2) 15AMP 240V breakers for the future PV on the roof (using enphase microinverters). I am not waiting, might as well get the meter changeout, and have the breaker space to do what I know is comming down the road

 

all comments directed to whom it may concern

1) i agree, the thread is not aptly titled in my case either. I will get rid of my Pri and Zenn to get the Leaf but still have another Pri left so the Leaf will not replace my Pri. for what it does, the Pri still does not have any real competition.

2) running the lights AND AC will reduce your range from 100 miles to about....well, all depends on ambient temps, but if your friend is Mr. Freeze, you mighg reduce your range to 95 miles.

3) the tax laws are a concern. someone mentioned that a tax credit could be applied over several years? can anyone verify that? i file single simply because we are not married and get A LOT more money back when lower earner files head of household, so my tax liability is relatively high but even then, i wont get the full 7500?

4) hate to even mention this because its so obvious and has been rehashed a million times, but... the Leaf is not the perfect answer (there is no such thing unless you want to fantasize over a 7 passenger vehicle that runs on water and costs less than a penny per mile to run) but the Leaf is a step in the right direction.

EV tech is still in its infancy and will continue to be there until a company actually mass-markets a car. GM did not do it the 90's but still managed a decent groundswell of support. say what you want about the EV1, but it had problems, lots of them.

but the EV1 was never given a chance to succeed. if GM would have allowed it, the end users probably would have mitigated or resolved most the major issues on their own. When the Leaf comes out, range, reliability and technical glitches will happen. i am guessing the range will be the lesser of the issues (YMMV will apply as always!) but i am familiar with the metric used to provide the range estimates and in my area, its over-estimated by about 5-15% (range is dependent upon ambient temps. summer better, winter not. chemistry used is supposed to be slightly less affected by weather)

so base your purchase on a 80 mile range and you should be fine...for now. like any car, as soon as it hits the streets, people will begin to tear it apart, figuring out ways to make it work better, go longer, etc.

on range issues. back when i got my Zenn 29 months ago, i started tracking my driving needs. with an 80 mile range.

the Leaf would cover 92% of my needs including 100% of my daily driving needs.

now add in the recharging network which i am lucky enough to be living in one of the 11 areas selected as part of the pilot program. with a full recharge in less than 27 mins (if charging from dead, i am guessing by planned location and my driving needs i will be at about 30-40% SOC possibly reducing charging time to about 15 mins or 3 quick trips to gas station...or half a trip when women, children and bladders are involved!!)

then the Leaf would cover over 98% of my transportation needs including all but 7 trips made by me and my family over the past 25 months (the extra month was added to incorporate two trips to Salem OR which is also part of the EV highway, so i could conceivably drive there in the Leaf but would have to recharge 3 times to make it...but we are trying to be balanced, so i will pretend that stopping 3 times would be too inconvenient despite the fact that the same trip was done over Easter weekend and 2 stops were required anyway on each leg despite having a car that went all the way down there and back without having to stop for gas)

 

Here are my questions:

The 100mile range estimate is for "average" driving conditions. How does this range decrease with:

(1) Age of the battery? Every battery loses capacity with age, so what is the estimate range when the battery is 5 years old, and has 75K miles on it? I noticed the battery warrenty is only 5 years.

(2) Loading? What is the range with 2-4 passengers?

(3) Temperature? Range in cold weather?

(4) Realistically, do you need to install a home re-charging station for 240Volts so that it can re-charge in 4-8 hours?

(5) This range is estimated at what (average) driving speeds? Takes significant energy to maintain 65+mph for any length of time. Is this designed more for urban driving?


You know, there may only be 5%-10% decreases for each of the aformentioned, but they will add up, and if I had to worry with each comute that I may not have enough charge to make it home...then, quite frankly, having to worry about stuff like this does not make it viable for someone like me.


Love the concept of all electric, and clearly, it's on it's way. As other's have mentioned, I would not want to be the "first on the block" to find out the pit-falls from such a new vehicle. I'll keep my eye out, and see what the early buyers have to say once they get 50K miles on the vehicle.

For now, I have no problems getting more than 50 mpg with my G3, so I'm in no rush to jump ship. My experience with the G3 is that the stated mileage is NOT hype. It's real. And so far (knock on wood), the reliability is real, and NOT hype. I want worry-free, trouble-free, hassle-free driving, and right now, I get that from the G3. That remains to be seen whether the Leaf can deliver on all the promises. I hope they can.

 

1) new tech, its a good question. we shall see. but if 5 years is offered, then its most likely tested to be very reliable for at least 50% greater time period.

2) once again, i would go with 80 miles. not likely to be worse than that. that is still 40 miles one way which only about 3% do on a daily basis

3) see above

4) i do not plan to do so. in most cases, my car will sit at least 12 hours charging at 110 volts. more than enough

5) the amount of power to maintain 65 mph is less than doing stop and go driving in 35 mph traffic.

P.S. wow, like how can you expect a real answer when u dont really tell us anything about u? do u live in a worst case scenario? or do u plan to move to an area that represents one?

how about providing some of that? i can say for sure, that living on the side of the mountains of the Northern Canadian Rockies, your range will be probably closer to 40-50 miles. so now u are down to 20-25 miles one way. which is what about 40% of us do

 

Don't you think that once EVs become more mainstream that more and more destinations will provide charging stations or at least power availability? You go to Costco, you plug in. You go to work, you plug in. You stop at McDonald's, you plug in. Once charging is commonplace the range of the EV will effectively be doubled.

 

yes, it's called "opportunity" charging. plug it in, even if you only have a standard 120V outlet available, as something is always better than nothing
Even if you only get a few extra miles, from a quick 15-20 minutes charge, it will ease peoples "range anxiety". It also means if you go to visit a friend, you can plug in, and get some charge during your visit, and will allow you to go further with less worry. BTW, they have not said if the Leaf will have an onboard 120V charger, I certianly hope that is standard, as without it, you won't have the option.

 

it does

 

ok, 50 mile RT, unless u can plug in at work, i would never do it. my personal limit on this is 30 miles simply because i want the option to make a side trip if need be.

but, your location is CRITICAL to understanding what u need.

50 miles RT could mean anything. the northern rockies comment was made on purpose because that is probably near worst case scenario. but if you live in a relatively flat area with temperate climates, etc. u will probably be ok. but once again, your commute is right at the limit and i recommend against it.

in many areas, EV charge stations WILL come about if Nissan can pull this off. but we need volume and support and that will not happen unless people are willing to give it a chance.

 

Dave, I am signing up on April 20th with my $99 deposit, I am ready to sell my 2010 Prius within 90 days after having the Leaf, if it all works as expected.

It is unlikely I will be able to get the car before sometime in 2011, as they are promising the first 4700 or even more to the "left" coast and "the EV Project"

maybe you can sign up for 2, and I'll fly over and pick it up so what if it takes a month to drive it back

 

Why should it take a month? Once you crest the continental divide, you should be able to coast all the way to the Plains States.

 

Because it's nearly 3000 miles, and I will only have access to 120V chargers (12-16 hours or longer to recharge). It will probably be cheaper to send it by rail or flatbead, if he could actually get 2

 

First, I genuinely applaud Nissan, and hope the Leaf will be a tremendous success.

I understand that the Leaf will meet the need of many. But there will be limitations. Today, my wife volunteered that we would pick up our granddaughter and bring her to our home for the weekend. It was a 125 mile round trip. We only have one vehicle, a G3, and the trip- was a non-issue. Personally, I would not have wanted to tell my wife we cannot get her because it is beyond our range.

Some of you have written that a 100 mile limit will be no problem ... and for those with two vehicles, I certainly agree. My concern is there will always arise situations where a milage limit will create issues ... If an EV is your only vehicle and it has a limited range, there will arise situations where a power outage during a storm will interrupt the charge; or your child will trip on the cord and unplug the charge; or a late night emergency will require you to make a trip during the night, again interrupting the charge.

This thread is about the Leaf vs. the Prius. Obviously each of us will need to carefully assess our own situation; how distant the commute; and if you own 2 vehicle, are all improtant considerations. Some of you clearly have more money that I and can afford 2 cars, but my decision will be made on the practicality of the EV as applied to my situation, and the economics of owning an expensive commuter car..

 

i admire your faith BUT, if you are a single household, keep your Pri. the range on the Leaf is just too limiting.

if you are a 2 car household, keep your Pri, its still the best option for longer range driving, unless of course, u r already a 2 Pri household, then i can understand u trading your Pri for the Leaf

 

for a single car household, i completely agree that the Leaf will not work. but most of your concerns about a non charge are not valid. the Leaf comes with a complete remote control charge and monitoring system. should it stop charging for any reason, tripped breakers, etc. it will most likely call and let u know.

 

I have a 2010 Prius and a 1994 Chevy Suburban. I need to keep the suburban, as that is how I plow the driveway and parking area [I can't imagine trying to bolt the #1200 Fisher plow to the Prius ],
the 94 suburban is good enough if I need more range than the Leaf will have. Nope, the 2010 Prius is odd man out sad to say. However, I don't have to sell it, but I don't want to pay to insure 3 vehicles for 1 person either. I could just take the 94 suburban off the road and not insure it, but then that is 3 vehicles for 1 person, and is a bit piggish really.

Let me add that the vast majority of the miles I drive are to downtown Boston for work, that is a 34 mile/day roundtrip, and that is what the Leaf is for, purley a commuter vehicle, that's why the Prius needs to go as well.

 

Some people it will work as many people have stated it will work for them. Because it will not work for you does not mean it will not work for the next person. The leaf would work perfectly for my parents and my fiance parents (who never leave their town, but both have newer cars). Many people use the same analogy for the prius and it cause such a firestorm.

About charging during a blackout, I would like to point out you can't get gas either, so if you run your prius down, just like the leaf, you would not be able to go anywhere. The Leaf will not (rarely if ever)"trip" breakers. You are talking about a "smart appliance" that can gauge the amperage and voltage of its hook up and adjusts accordingly.

It seems that many on this board are acting as ignorant as non-prius drivers do about the prius spouting half-truths and urban legends as much as any hybrid hater. this is just an observation not directed at anyone in particular.

 

Have you guys never heard of RENTAL CARS?!? The Leaf doesn't have to fit every single possible trip you might take in the next 10 years...

 

Sorry have to say this.
How can you return the Leaf with a "Full" tank (Fully charged)?