NHTSA fines Toyota $16.4 M.

No, but the same design is used in numerous European models and the cars are being recalled for the same shim fix.

The Times published a great document

 

While some regs have different tiers of civil fines based on intent or past history, these do not. Willful falsification or withholding does carry criminal liability. So one could argue that NHTSA has not levied the maximum penalty possible (though for criminal liability to be applied, a death or serious bodily injury has to actually have occurred as a result of the defect). The fine formula is $6,000/violation/day. The exact numbers aren't clear (I had ~110 days and 23 model-years), but it looks like following the formula gets you right around the max fine specified in reg ($16.4 million). The max fine in statute is $15 million, and when they wrote the rule they adjusted for inflation. Statute doesn't seem to provide for that, but sometimes these things are tricky and certain provisions are in other sections. The statute also says that the size of the violator should be considered (along with the gravity of the violation). So in my mind, due to Toyota's size, that makes the max fine by rule appropriate. One could also argue that the number of vehicles involved makes the violation more serious. One could make several arguments (on both side) about the gravity of the violation. 49 CFR 578, 49 USC 30170.

The main problem is that the Sept. 29 "smoking gun" has not been released (though AP has it), so all I've had to go on is media reports. And all those reports say is that Canadian and European dealers were notified on Sept. 29.

This article has a few more details, but not too much:

Europeans warned of Toyota pedals well before US - Yahoo! News

 

You asked why I thought the maximum fine was too small. I answered, but I see there are some that won't believe the government should be allowed to have any real juristiction on safety matters. Toyota, GM, and Ford have been treating the NHTSA like their little girl, and I spell girl with a 'b'. I'm sure even if there was an email saying it was time to come clean you would not believe Toyota should be fined more than a couple dollars a car a month.

Toyota Email Urged Company to 'Come Clean' - WSJ.com

 

I hold strongly that companies like people should just do the right thing...always. If Toyota notified those in Europe back in Sept then they should have notified the NA consumers and authorities at the same time.

If they had done so then they would have avoided this particular mess.

Not much sympathy from me on this one.

 

I agree. I'm just guessing, but I think Toyota would say that since SUA hasn't been proven to be due to anything other than floor mats, it wasn't really a "safety recall." Don't know if it would fly with an administrative law judge, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't with the public.

 

What stinks is , had Toyota put all their bad news in Sept/Oct of 09', they could of kissed all their Holiday business away...Toyota, as did any retail business had to recover from a horrible holiday 08' retail season.Instead, the media fallout was in late Jan. 10' and Toyota took it on the chin in Feb(The weakest selling month for most retailers) 10' sales .The timing seems business wise precise.The outcome, they sold a little over 100,000 cars in the U.S, compared to over 195,000 in Feb 2007. Toyota was among the minority of retailers that took consecutive losses in Feb 09'(The business retail world seemed bleak with bank problems and huge job layoffs) and Feb 10' (recall fallout)....Many companies would fire their CEO's with close to a 50% drop.

Had the reports been back in Sept 09' , most of us would of enjoyed the $2,000- $4,000 discounts in incentives(0% financing or lowered sticker price) that was given away in March 10'(Which propped their business to the up side, make no mistake about it) when we bought our car in the ladder of 2009.

From the outside looking in, it stinks bad.

 

Bob, what you described sounds like technical compliance vs functional (aka user) feedback. The former is measurable while the later is a moving target.

 

On the contrary, I do seek governmental intervention whenever consumer safety is involved. That is given. Their role is without question from both moral and legal perspective.

In reality, however, that line gets burred. Esp when governments get involved with business activities which can result in conflict of interest.

It is easy with hind-sight to past judgment based on latest "Come clean" email that federal officials managed to pull from over 70,000 doc.

Was this email statement quoted out of context?
Did Toyota management want to to keep that a secret or delay publishing it before further factual evidence can be found?

 

"10,000 field engineers", as in "every customer is a field engineer." We used to joke about that being our beta testing system.

Tom

 

At least we have some room for agreement.

There was ample evidence in the congressional testimony that toyota had discussed this. Given the strong language of la hood there had to be more evidence in the documents. IMHO toyota knew its responsibility to its customers and decided to keep quiet. The maximum possible fine is so low, I'm sure they didn't care about it at all. One of the findings of the congressional committee that the Toyota USA was not allowed to make the decision to issue a recall, only japan. Which recall do you think they were talking about.

But really how could the email be taken out of context. Read the whole thing, with the hate to break it to you sarcasm. Or add on the other information of toyota only testing 3 pedals in vehicles with unintended acceleration and finding 2 of them had sticky pedals. I could go on, but its all been reported.

 

The Associated Press: Audi to climb Pikes Peak without a driver

Maybe this is the real answer...

 

Re: NHTSA fine $16.4 M.

....

 

Of final I think that the winner will be TOYOTA

 

No no, not again!

Toyota had been a winner for some time, and it was preciously this that had gotten so much unwanted (political) attention recently.

 

Toyota isn't the only auto maker who has crossed swords with the US
gov't over the safety of the vehicles it makes and sells.

Remember this one?

$4.9 Billion Judgment Latest in GM Liability Saga

"The $4.9 billion judgment against General Motors this month (Jul. 20,
1999) in a fuel-tank fire case is the latest chapter in a long saga
involving independent counsel and former GM lawyer Kenneth Starr,
accusations of perjury and obstruction of justice, and an infamous
1973 internal memo revealing that General Motors engineer Edward
Ivey had placed the value of a human life at $200,000.

"The record-settling judgment in the latest case centered on a
California crash in which six people in a GM pickup truck were hit from
behind by a drunk driver. The truck's fuel tank exploded, seriously
burning the occupants."

Some would say that GM subsequently fully recovered from any
lingering customer confidence issues, including possible "perjury and
obstruction of justice."

What would suggest That Toyota won't do likewise?

After all, the judgement against GM was 298 times larger than Toyota's
possible $16.4M civil penalty and they recovered both financially and
apparently with customer confidence/SUV sales.

 

I for one have neer said Toyota is going away in the US, but I don;t think they will recover market-share wise for years. Obviously there are unknown variables but Toyota gobbled up market share for so long based on the assumption they were 'perfect' or heads and tails above every other car-maker. Those assumptions have been destroyed by the actions or inactions of toyota. Time will tell where it all ends up. Momentum can be a powerful thing.

 

The judgement will be surpassed several times in this toyota mess.