Nissan Leaf vs Prius

I am an apartment dweller and I need a car. Unless you are an apartment dweller in a city like NYC, chances are that you would need personal transit, or prepare to be severely inconvenienced.

The Leaf would fit my commuting requirements just fine, but I have no external charging facility. One hopes apartment/condo communities and businesses start providing outdoor charging facilities soon.

 

The Leaf fast charger wil only be available in comercial locations, because it requires 480Volt/3 Phase power @ 100AMPS (50KW)

It is capable of fast charging the Leaf from near empty to a full charge in 27 minutes, according to Nissan. It also comes with a price tag to match it's capabilities: $65K

The standard 240V/20A home charger could do it in about 6 hours, while if you run the 240V charger @ 40A,cuts it down to 3 hours.

You are replacing up to 24KW, if you do the math you will see you can only get so many KW per hour out of certain size circuits, the math works like this:

120V @ 20 AMPs = 2400 watts * .80 (safety factor) = 1920 watts/hour, or 1.92KW/hour

240V @ 20AMPs = 4800 watts * .80 (safety factor) = 3840 watts/hour, or 3.84KW/hour

240V @ 40AMPs = 9600 watts * .80 (safety factor) = 7680 watts/hour, or 7.68KW/hour

480V @ 100AMPs = 48000 watts * .80 (safety factor) = 38400 watts/hour, or 38.4KW/hour

P.S. it is much simpler to clean a centralized power source than to scrub tens of thousands of tailpipes, plus much of the power in the western us is "green" (PV & Wind)

P.S.S. Hydrogen is a "big oil" pipe dream, it just ain't gonna happen.

 

So if you are the 'average commuter' who drives 31 miles a day, it should take 2 hours to recharge at 20 Amps, (Typical Electric Dryer connection) 1 hour if your Panel will support 40 Amps.

 

Yes, and you can set the car to "delay start" the charging, if you have "time of day" metering (popular in California).

 

How much of it? Personally I think both PV and wind are very poor solutions, both of which are far more ecologically damaging than any of their proponents are willing to admit.

 

While I would LOVE to hear your reasoning, I think that is a topic for another thread:focus:

 

It is quite ugly. 100 mile range is not bad but if you look at the 50 mpg of the prius it's not like the leaf is going to be terribly cheaper to run and chances are that by the time you start saving a lot of money you're already driving more than it's capable of anyway. The price is not bad with these incentives but you can obviously forget about going far from home.

 

What makes you say this? Do you have information that has been held back from the rest of the world?

Tom

 

he is probably used the argument that there is a lot of "embedded energy" in the mfr of the PV panels and Wind generators which is true, however, they return far far more energy than it took to create them, over time... It's a better use of limited resources than building gigantic coal fired plants, of building huge SUVs.

 

perhaps you are missing the point: it is the year 2030, peak oil is here and it costs $10 gallon for gasoline... do you still think we should be ignoring EV's and EV technology? If we don't start now, the technology won't be developed enough by then to replace the ICE, yes I said it, the ICE is doomed.

 

I think that people are greatly underestimating the problem with buying a pure EV. The terms "average commuter" or "95% of the US population" are used erroneously. I think that the situation is analogous to likely voters vs registered voters in poll-taking. I will list those things I come up quickly (just off the top of my head) that will take from the entire population of "average commuters." I believe this difference in classification will be dramatic and keep the EV infrastructure from growing quickly.

(1) First you subtract out those who cannot put a charger at home. It will be sometime before apartment owners will have chargers out in the apartment parking lot. You also subtract out those who do not tend to use a car for commuting - like in NYC or where mass transit is prevalent.

(2) Then you subtract out the people who only can afford or do not want more than one car. By shrinking the population down to multiple car families is saying a lot. Excluding wealthy people, you are taking out of the potential population of Leaf owners much of the single people who live alone and who only want to stay within the range of the EV.

(3) Then from the multiple car families you subtract out those who can afford two cars but cannot afford to own two reliable cars. The second car in middle class families tends to be cheaper and usually less reliable. In order to depend upon that car to commute to work, it has to be a highly reliable car. That is when you get to this "not buying a French car" mentality.

(4) Then you have people like me who, though, they are a family person who can afford to buy a second car only for commuting, will not do it because it is not the most economical solution. You have to be a "gadget guy" to a high degree to spend thousands of extra dollars just for a new technology. The main competition to the Leaf is not the PHEV Prius; it will be the newer technology that will be seen is Toyota cars like the FT-CH compact hybrid. The Prius Gen III is now a midsize car. People see the 25K price tag for the Leaf and forget that governments are not going to give those tax credits for very long.

(5) Then you subtract out the cold weather reliability problem. Currently you have to decrease at least by 75-80% from the normal miles range if you are going to use the Li battery consistently in sub-freezing weather.

(6) Then you subtract out the the people who are going to have one of two main kinds of fears. The first is the range fear. It is not just the range getting to work (if I accept that I buy a car only for that) but people will have to ask themselves "What hospital must I drive to in case of emergency?" I cannot expect the second car (non EV) to be around when that medical emergency happens.

(7) The second fear is the fear of being shocked. Normal people are not accustomed to using and plugging in 240 volts every day. I have an EE degree and have acquired a higher respect for handling 240 volt AC in humid weather. Think about driving your wet car into the garage from out of the rain and then reaching for a 240 volt plug. It will take only a few cases of people being killed or severly injured in damp 240 volt environments before 120 volt or special training is required to handle plugs routinely above more normal house line voltage. Being forced to use 120 volts has a severe time and/or range penalty. Working with 240 volts is a lot different than people used to charging cell phone batteries. Are you going to be the common person who will be plugging your car into a 240 volt charging station or (even worse) a fast charger in the rain?

When the real, practical numbers are compared between newer hybrid models and the new EVs, my belief is that the EV market will not be as big as anticipated right now. That slow growing market will inhibit a strong market for the EV-only technology.

 

FUD = Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.

I am not going to debate every point, they have been debated ad nauseum before. as for #7, the charger plug is NOT live when you are plugging into the car. There is of course an interlock.. pleeease.

and, while EV's are not for everyone, as they don't meet everyone's needs, they will work for %80 of the US population. Once a city / area has been wired by the "EV Project" there will be plenty of public charging locations, apartment dwellers will be able to charge when they go shopping at the mall, etc. Just look at the EV project map for Dan Diego, CA, for example.

The EV Project » Charging Maps

put in "San Diego, CA"

Yes, the EV project is only wiring up certain Western US cities on the initial trial, the plan is to go nationwide by 2014.

 

I never said that fear makes any kind of sense. A 240 volt plug used to mechancially contact more than 500 times a year will fail at least a few times. Do not disregard that thought that women have when you plug 240 volts after reading about someone else being injured. Plugging in a non-hot plug will limit the problem to a great degree but that probability will result in a problem eventually.

Without getting into the politics, I would not use France nor California as the example of what will happen in the rest of the US.

Battery technology of doubling the range will not really be effective because that doubles the charging time. That is more of an electrical problem that probably will not be solved.

I fully agree with your comment about $5 gallon gasoline. But the problem is that we have not seen the MPG that will be come about from lighter and more fuel efficient ICE in hybrid cars.

 

Last time I checked there where only 365 days in most years, that I am aware of. It's unlikely to be plugged in more than once a day, if you are in the target demographic (if not, they will not even sell you a Leaf). If a 24KW pack can be fully charged from a 240V/40A circuit in 3 hours, why couldn't a 48KW pack be charged by this same circuit in 6 hours? most people go home, plug in the car, eat diner, watch Tv and go to sleep, usually there is way more than 6 hours before they need the car again, so much more time, they can even charge it "off peak" starting at midnight or 1AM, and could still have a 200 mile/48KW pack ready by 6AM. What if you only have a 240/20A connection? then perhaps you won't be driving 200 miles/day in the future...

$5/gallon gasoline? wake up and smell the stinky gas vapor, that number could happen this YEAR or next, the real peak oil will be bringing $10,$15 or even higher prices per gallon.

 

QUOTE - Mitch

"EV's are not for everyone, as they don't meet everyone's needs, they will work for %80 of the US population.

I'd say more like 20% of the US population. It pretty much would have to be a 2nd car in the family - and a family that can afford its purchase. Everyone I know would not want to be in a position to have a limited drive - or a limited drive with a 1/2 hour recharge every 95 (or less) miles. I could drive from my house in Irvine to San Diego (92 miles 1-way), but would I chance that?? Not me. So, my normal 90 minute drive to San Diego in a Leaf would now include a 1/2 hour charging stop? I'd still take the Prius, which even holds more.

Leaf is great for a commuter under 80 miles daily ... who has a 2nd car or other family cars. And, that's with all the tax credits, etc.
I'm still looking forward to the test drive!
Bart in SoCAL

 

I notice many of the nay-sayers are from California.
I think these people may be over-estimating how 'typical' their lengthy commutes are.
Now, I may also be over-estimating how typical my lack of lengthy commutes is. But I do wonder.
In any case, we should find out in the next few years. It should be interesting.

 

The most critical factor for the acceptance of EV is how long the battery pack will last.
Nissan is still mum on the warranty period. Like Tesla, if the warranty is only three years, the acceptance will be low even the price is "affordable" after tax credits.

 

DanCar set the tone of this tread with the title. The vs (versus) makes it a conflict, needlessly in my opinion. The Prius tends to be production limited, they can sell all they can make batteries for. I will be amazed if the Leaf is not production limited, they will sell all they can make batteries for. So we will never know if they might have suited X% of the population, just as we do not know how many Prius Toyota could sell if they could make enough.

As I (however clumsily) tried to explain potential Leaf owners and potential Prius owners will be two different groups, with very limited overlap. Prius owners are preselected to be owners who think they drive long distances. Leaf owners will be preselected to be owners who think they will not be inconvenienced by 100 mile range. I can visualize owners being in both groups, but I have to work at it. (I know a gentleman who drives around a prison for a living, shining a light, keeping prisoners in. You could drive a long distance and yet never be more than a block from a charging station. This would be ideal if you owned two batteries)

I wish the Leaf well, I just do not see me owning one with my current job.

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