Nissan Leaf vs Prius

Or to put it another way: If you have a typical commute, the Leaf sounds good.

I honestly see it exactly the other way around. Unless you mean more = longer. That isn't always the case. We have Rav4EV drivers who put their first 100k miles on their cars in under three years. This is a car designed for 1996 model year with ~100 mile range. 200 mile days was not uncommon. It turns out that even if you drive a LOT, that the car is still parked (and can be charging) way more than it is being driven.

So.... you mean like the majority of drivers in the world?

True. Though it has been done many times in cars with lower range.... and installing fast charges on the highways would be cheaper than gas stations... and infinitely cheaper than H2 stations.

'zactly. Most of our private automobile miles here in the US are commute miles. Most multi-car familes have one car that is a dedicated commuter. For those untold millions of annual miles, an EV really is the perfect solution. It is NOT the perfect solution for every vehicular "need" - just as no other vehicle is.

"Dealing" with it? Do you own a cell phone? Do you deal with that OK? Charging the car is easier. Seriously. If you remember to buckle your seatbelt, then you've got all the memory and dexterity skills required to charge the car. I spend WAY less time charging my car than I do filling the Prius at the gas station. I mean orders of magnitude less. I'm not sure I understand why it sounds like two things: "garage power connection and recharge hook up." You simply grab the connector off the wall and stuff it into the charge port. Slightly less complicated than finding your seatbelt and plugging it into the clicker. Way less complicated than filling up a car with gas (and standing around for several minutes while this happens). I have confidence that you'll deal with it just fine!

Please note that of the EV drivers surveyed that *convenience* of home charging was their favorite part. Don't fear the unknown! It may end up being something to enjoy.

 

If I could afford to have both I would! First of all, the Leaf is ugly? The mountains of chrome and steel I have to park between every day where I live, now that's ugly! I am thrilled the Leaf is coming, although I bet it will be late 2012 before most areas see much availability! I can go nearly two months without visiting the pump in my Prius, so I'll wait for the second or third gen of the EV tide!

 

lol

It would cut out at the slightest hint of rain. :focus:

 

I keep my cars long term, I don't believe Nissan make cars for the long haul.

 

I think Lotus is still making cars. I'd own one of those. They use Toyota engines, IIRC. I believe one of their chassis is the basis for the Tesla roadster.

 

For convenience, let's assume I work 300 days a year and drive 30,000 miles a year. (this ignores long trips but they favor the Prius as well)
Simple division hints I drive 100 miles a day on average. This is the theoretical average limit of the Leaf, so every day I will be concerned about being stranded by the road. This will get old, soon.

If I drove more, my daily average distance would HAVE to increase, or I never get a day off.

Worse of course, because every day is not an average day. I have days with 250 miles in them. I would have to recharge twice some where enroute at huge cost in time not spent earning money. (Since I am driving to clients, not an employer, I have no hope to ever drive TO a charging station)

The folks here are 'preselected' as Prius owners, they already decided that they drive so much that a $25,000 car that gets 50 MPG is cheaper than a $15,000 car that gets 30 MPG. So they are all either driving a LOT or are bad at math.

The math for a $25,000 car with a 100 mile range that uses no gas vs a $15,000 car that gets 30 MPG is different, so a different group of owners will choose the Leaf. (overlap is possible)

I can hope a large fraction of Americans do find the Leaf a viable alternative, without being one of that fraction. (It would surely meet my wife's needs, her commute is 2.3 miles each way to a garage with 220 in an SUV that gets 20 MPG. Sadly is a company car, so we have no control over replacement. At least they pay the gas bill)

 

Or believe it is important to get their nation off being dependant on foreign oil?

I believe that a 100 mile range would be enough for 80% of drivers in the USA. The average American drives a total of 33.4 miles per day. Yes, you are highly unusual, you should be proud

 

I did include the 'or are bad at math' option.

It may be that it would be workable for me as well, but ALMOST running out of charge each day would be as bad as ALMOST running out of gas each day. (where the only gas station is at your home) That would wear on you even if you coasted home every time.

If the average is 33.4 miles, doesn't that mean that half drive more than that? I could live with a 50/50 split of Leaf and Prius ownership, but I would be a Prius owner.

 

darell,
Have you seen and/or driven the leaf? I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Thanks

 

I think it's fantastic to see another way to stick it to Big Oil. I would love to buy one, but I just bought a brand new Prius, and with an 85 mile (roundtrip) commute, it wouldn't work for me. But I hope Nissan sells millions of them.

 

Why do you equate only using one/third of the range to 'ALMOST running out of charge'.
Yes, you may 'almost run out of charge' but the average person will have plenty of leeway.

But MOST of the remaining half (that drive further than 33.4 miles per day) will still be well under the 100 miles per day. Even if it is a linear relationship, 75% of people would be driving less than 51 miles per day!

Again, the Leaf won't work for everyone. I do believe it will work well for many more people than you seem to think it will work for.

 

I see this as an apples-to-oranges comparison - or better yet, it's like comparing a screwdriver to a hammer.

Most of the complaints about the Leaf are about the 100-mile limit. If you drive more than 100 miles a day on a regular basis, then obviously you're trying to screw a nail or pound a screw.

On the other hand, if >95% of your trips are under 50 miles (i.e.: more than half of us) and returning home again, the Leaf is a much better fit. And with the money you save, you can rent a Prius for those cross-country trips (which also retains value on your Leaf by keeping the mileage low).

And seriously, look at your actual total round-trip distance.

I'm nowhere near "urban", but most of my trips are under 15miles round-trip, and I have some friends who are 40 miles (round-trip) that I visit a few times a month, so the Leaf would easily work for all of that. Unfortunately I also have some friends who are about 80 highway miles (round-trip), so that probably wouldn't work - but it's close. And I rarely go beyond that - maybe a half-dozen times per year at most, and could car-pool on many of those.

I know it won't work for everyone (it won't for me, so luckily there's the Prius), but seriously, a lot of people are brushing it off just because it's different.

Using the charging station is just a different way of filling up - and you don't have to drive around looking for someplace that will sell you stuff to put into the car, you have it at home. And you don't have to stand outside in the rain/snow waiting for it to go in - you just connect the plug and go to bed.

 

Because I go an average of 50 miles each way every day I work. With a 100 mile claimed range, even if it works for me, I will be 'ALMOST running out of charge' every day. If they commute 30 miles each way, they are closer to 2/3 the range.

I believe it will work for more folks than will be willing to purchase one, not knowing if it will work for their situation.

Sadly, the group I wish it worked for are those with no access to 220v at 20, or better, 40 amps.
Apartment/Condo dwellers are unlikely to have outdoor electricity at all, let alone 220, and are the most likely to have sensible commutes within the range of a Leaf.

 

Valid point, although most apartment/condo dwellers are likely to have access to public transit, so they don't need a car at all.

In the "typical CAR commuter" ring around a city, I think you'd find a fair amount of property owners - and condo owners who have some power to make changes to their properties. That number increases if you include people who commute to a local rail station for the final leg into the city.

 

QUOTE:
"Dealing" with it? Do you own a cell phone? Do you deal with that OK? Charging the car is easier. Seriously. If you remember to buckle your seatbelt, then you've got all the memory and dexterity skills required to charge the car. I spend WAY less time charging my car than I do filling the Prius at the gas station. I mean orders of magnitude less. I'm not sure I understand why it sounds like two things: "garage power connection and recharge hook up." You simply grab the connector off the wall and stuff it into the charge port. Slightly less complicated than finding your seatbelt and plugging it into the clicker. Way less complicated than filling up a car with gas (and standing around for several minutes while this happens). I have confidence that you'll deal with it just fine!

Please note that of the EV drivers surveyed that *convenience* of home charging was their favorite part. Don't fear the unknown! It may end up being something to enjoy.[/QUOTE]

DARELL: OK .. I meant more of the $2k installation (or maybe free?) and not being able to go more than 50 miles (1-way) w/o a stratigically placed long stop. Again, I plan to pop for the $99 (refundable) and get a close-up and personal look. There will be more coming in a few years. Bart

 

I was for once in my life a Renault Owner. It's one to much.

 

Yes, as I said, for YOU it is 'almost'. For most people, there is plenty of range. This is a good indication is isn't the right car for YOU. But that doesn't mean it won't work for the majority of people.

But it isn't. For half the people, they are at 1/3 as they drive a TOTAL distance of 33.4 miles. Not one way, total distance.
But even if it were 2/3, who cares? The concern is that people won't run out of range, which means 100% of actual range, not 2/3.

I am sure you are correct. But isn't that the case for any product? Fewer people will buy it that could use it (due to personal preferences, etc).

This is a very good point. Although in areas with the swap stations that won't be an issue either as they can swap out the battery as needed.

 

many people have "range anxiety", even though it isn't really an issue. some people will never be happy with a 100 mile range, even though it will work for between %80-%90 of the population. Give them 150 or 200 miles, they would still be unhappy.

I am not worried about it, and I am looking forward to the day when I no longer have to get oil changes, stop for fuel every week (yes, even in my Gen 3 2010 Prius, I "gas" up every Saturday, even though the tank is only 1/2 empty). The Leaf along with the PV panels that will eventually be installed will allow many of my miles driven to be fairly non-polluting.

Even a hybrid still burns gasoline and pollutes the environment, less so than a guzzler, but it's still a gasoline powered vehicle, when you get right down to it.

 

Noble and TVR. Awesome sports cars, great design and still fantastic handmade quality. The challenge for we Brits comes when we start mass producing and introducing the uncaring masses into the process...

 

I'm interested in the fast charging concept. How long would a fast charge take to put another 100 miles on the Leaf?

As an overall point too with the EV concept, doesn't it seem like an odd approach to convert fossil fuels to electricity, then throw away a pretty good percentage of this with transmission losses before using it locally? I'm a huge fan of electric power, but surely the hydrogen fuel cell is the way to go - although I am aware that making hydrogen through electrolysis is a hideously inefficient use of electricity that has been generated from fossil fuels and transmitted...

Anyway, getting a little off topic here, sorry. Just interested.