LA Times: Prius inquiry takes a detour

Hobbit,
Toyota has been attempting to confuse us with what is in an edr. They do indeed record the most recent records. On anouther thread someone suggested only the last 150ms is recorded. Which is correct for airbag data, but the same 2004 document said that many toyota edrs recorded the last 5 seconds of brake, throttle, speed, etc. By 2008 I would hope more data was recorded than 5 seconds, but it should at a minimum tell us if a brake throttle over ride was working and other information.

 

All the media coverage has been going under assumption that the problem exist and only interviewed the driver. Why not interview Toyota tech to demo how the car is designed to work? I just don't see a fair coverage from both sides.

 

Correct. His Prius was *not* impounded. As stated above, there is no legal reason for impounding his vehicle.

Tom

 

No, it doesn't work that way. The EDR only saves a few seconds of data. Since the Prius was eventually stopped in a normal fashion, the period of time at the end encompassing normal driving will completely fill the EDR and overwrite any data from the problem.

All you will get is 5 seconds or so of normal data showing nothing. If any codes were thrown, they would still be in the ECUs, which could be helpful.

Tom

 

We have different versions of normal driving

90 to 55 with throttle, full brakes plus parking brakes
start button turned off at 55
Stopping with brakes and whatever the off condition is.

You may be right that toyota does not save the data when the car is turned off at high speed, and over ran the buffer as the car slowed in the off moving condition.

You are not correct that the information is wiped because an air bag did not go off. The systems are there for data logging and analysis including if an air bag did not go off and should have.

If there is not data, it is a badly designed system. There is no legal requirement yet for anything but the airbag functionality, but given all the reports of unintended acceleration toyota is acting in a negligent fashion to not provide logging to determine if it is driver error. The 5 seconds sounds low to me, and comes from a 2004 document. Toyota has not disclosed what is actually being recorded.

Any interested person would not consider the way this car stopped normal.

 

Why would I assume from a news story that something is very wrong with the car? Should not the presumption of innocence be given to the engineers, stockholders and workers of TMC? Do you really distrust big corporations so much that anyone that reports an issue is immediately considered Mother Theresa?

The news media want to sell advertising and win a Pulitzer. Toyota wants to sell cars and make money. They want to avoid responsibility for accidents involving their cars. Drivers want to avoid responsibility for their accidents. Plaintiffs' attorneys want to make money. Mr. Nader wants to relive his youth with the sequel to Unsafe at Any Speed. Mr. Kane and Dr. Gilbert want to make money. I like the controversy because I am more likely to buy another Toyota before I sell my Toyota (saving me money). Whether you believe the source or not, money IS the root of all evil. Karl Marx agreed with that.

 

huh. Toyota was holding a "press hearing" about how the electronics work. That was widely covered (in the most sensationalistic way). Do you think toyota and the nhtsa will not be covered when they talk to the press on the matter. They said they are investigating. Should the press ambush toyota and force them to get a tech to talk?

 

I agree with the ACLU that the black boxes should be banned from all cars. LAW REQUIRES CAR BLACK BOX NOTIFICATION PRIVACY ADVOCATES DECRY DEVICES AS BAD PRECEDENT. - Free Online Library

I don't like the idea that my insurance claim will be denied because I was driving 26 mph in a 25 mph zone which caused me to have the accident. I don't like insurance companies as much as car makers.

 

Well I agree with privacy concerns, but I am quite sure that sykes did not object to his car information being read. I also think most people bringing their vehicles to the dealers for unintended accelleration would rather have the data logged, and read, than have a tech tell them the problem is not repeatable. I'd like a long data log with privacy protected

from your article
In California, the new law is designed to address basic privacy concerns, Grum said.

AB 213 established that the vehicle owner has control of all the information - with four exceptions.

The first is a court order in which a judge can order that the information can be used in trial. The second exception is for research into vehicle safety, but in such cases the vehicle owner's name must be deleted.

The third exception is for repairs, which allows mechanics access to the data. And the fourth is if the vehicle owner volunteers the data.

 

I'll try one more time to explain how data loggers work. If you can't get it from this, I'll consider the task hopeless.

Dataloggers use the same block of memory over and over. Think of it as a loop of recording tape. In normal operation the tape is always completely full, with new data overwriting the oldest data on the tape. When a significant event occurs, the datalogger stops writing new data to the tape loop. This preserves all of the data on the tape leading up to the significant event.

With an automobile, of course, there isn't really a loop of tape. It's all semiconductor memory, but the concept is the same. The significant event that saves the data is airbag deployment. Lacking that, all of the data gets overwritten.

As an example, let's say you are in a hurry to get home and watch reruns of Gilligan's Island. An eye witness sees you speeding and calls the police, who pull up behind you in the driveway. The officer walks up and asks you to shut down your Prius. The police connect to the EDR and what do they find? They find out that for the last 5 seconds your speed has been zero, since you were sitting in your driveway.

What about the rest of the trip home, where you were going 103 mph and weaving in and out of traffic? It's all gone. The EDR only holds the last 5 seconds of data, and your reckless speeding is not an event that will trigger it to save data.

Getting back to my definition and your definition of normal driving, that is neither here nor there. It doesn't matter how weird, fast, or crazy a person drives as long as the airbags don't go off. Only a few seconds of data ever exist in the EDR, and the time it takes to slow down will easily overwrite that data.

Dataloggers can be built with much longer memories, as are used on aircraft, but this increases cost. So far the auto industry does not see the cost as worthwhile.

Tom

 

There's also the minor detail of separation of powers. As you note having a Congressional staffer there to overhear comments and preliminary analyses leads to having Issa get partial non-expert input for him to take and use to his advantage.

The NHTSA as part of the Executive Branch was called in front of the committee that Issa is part of to answer for their actions.

The two parties are - properly - opponents within our system.

 

True this ^^^. In fact nothing occured except that maybe Sikes the Scammer did something mildly illegal and unethical. No crash, no injuries, no damage or loss of property...nada.

Imagine what precedent this is setting. Now the NHTSA is expected to have a crack team of Rapid Deployment engineers everywhere in the country to grab every questionable vehicle from every questionable incident from every maker.

 

I'm sorry, I'm not 5.

I have been in charge of software projects that run on aircraft. I understand how black boxes work. I also worked on a test machine for airbag sensors for delco, so know quite a bit about how gm data logs on their cars. I have not recently priced non-volitile memory, but I would be surprised if in 2007 it would have cost Toyota much more than a $1 more to log 10 minutes of data. 5 seconds might actually cost more as it would be on outdated chips.

In a normal car when you turn it off, the log is saved. I have no idea what off in a prius is, but I would save at least part of the log there, and perhaps continue to log afterward if its in motion. Definitely a design flaw in my book that part of the log isn't saved (second ring buffer can continue logging).

Do you want to explain to me slowly why it has been a good idea to only have one laptop in the US to read the log. I'm open to the idea that the person designing the logging software was incompetent, but not that people have not thought about it.

 

Sorry, in 2008 and here in 2010 and probably out there in 2015+,
there is no requirement for a car to have anything like that deep
an event memory, and no need for it, and as much as your inner
child would like there to be one, there isn't one. Remember
the revelation about the tooth fairy? You got over that and
you're a big boy now, you can handle this. If you want a full
log of a vehicle's driving history you have to install the
appropriate gear, such as DriveCam [look it up] which some
commercial fleets have been using with great success to spot
improper driving. You might even find the great video of the
"sleepy cab driver" and what happens to him.
.
Besides, think about what happens if you rewrite the same flash
block over and over that many times.
.
_H*

 

I dont think the point was to blast the USA. The poster's point was that of all the runaway Toyota's being given focus by the media, they are all in the USA. Considering all the Toyotas in other parts of the world, why are only the USA cars malfunctioning? Or is it just a political condition that we are discussing? We all need some objective information to make a proper conclusion about the "problem".

 

Like when you try to sue your insurance company for denying your claim for speeding by a couple of miles per hour?

 

I would quite like to know whether the brake override worked, and if there is some kind of hoax. A log would help with this. Hobbit, you always seemed interested in these things too.

The inexpensive gps in my car actually logs exceptional acceleration and deceleration. I did not know that when I bought it.

I did state that the airbag requirement was the only legally binding one. I never believed in the tooth fairy. I once believed in toyota's commitment to continuous improvement and safety. I do think if toyota is not logging data they are missing a critical step in evaluating the unintended acceleration problem. This does open them up to higher jury awards and more news stories.

So do you know? If you turn a prius off while moving does it save the log, or just write it over with coasting information.

 

Nice. Drop off the paragraph about checking the driver.

Police report says brakes down to metal, and that isn't supposed to happen on a prius. So yes, believe the driver but investigate. Interview him (as they have already done), check out the car, come back with a report. I would much rather know if the throttle stuck and how than think the driver is a criminal before they have looked int the car. Hey did you see the jacket he wore, and he only leased didn't own the prius.

I hate the controversy because it has driven down the value of my car right after I bought it, and as I see Toyota handling it, I get mad at them too. Well add in a little anger at the issa for slowing the investigation. Then add some more for the NHTSA and how it's handling it also.

 

I understand your anger. I just think there are a lot of folks to be mad at.

I may be a pessimist, but I don't think Toyota can win this one, no matter what they do. People (particularly Americans) will believe what they want to: Obama is a secret Muslim who was born in Kenya; JFK was assassinated by the CIA; the Bush administration staged the 911 attacks; FDR knew about Pearl Harbor and did nothing so we could enter WW2; the earth is getting colder not warmer; etc. I would add that I believe it is as unlikely that every SUA incident is driver error as it is that every SUA event is due to Toyota's electronics. I would like to think that it would be otherwise but history shows it isn't likely.

 

There is no need for Toyota to assassinate Sikes' character. The Internets are doing that quite effectively.