Toyota secretive on 'black box' data

No. Drum brakes are more than capable of locking up the rear wheels.

 

I understand your point, and for sake of brevity, my statement was all-inclusive. But, a number of cars come equipped with 4-wheel disc brakes on all trim levels, which would be wasted $ if they added nothing to stopping ability. Also, on a given car, the lower trim versions may have rear-drum brakes, but add rear discs to the higher trim levels.

But my point isn't a debate about drum vs disc brakes. It's about public perception -- which I am guessing assumes that rear disc brakes are always better than rear drums.

 

I don't know if you'd call it secretive, but my reading of that FAQ's page is Toyota is at least being very deceptive.

They start phasing in EDR's in 2001 BUT by September of 2008 there exists only what Toyota refers to as a 1 prototype Toyota reader tool? So after installing EDR's since 2001, 7 years later they only have 1 prototype reader? That's BS. They only had one, because they only wanted 1 to exist.

"At this time, there is only one prototype Toyota readout tool in the United States and only specially designated Toyota personnel use it. The tool set has not yet been scientifically validated, and at this time, Toyota does not have confidence that the readout reports it generates are accurate"

This whole statement is carefully crafted "nice person covering". By stating that Toyota does not have confidence that the reports generated are accurate...it gives Toyota a nice "out" if the reports reveal damning information.

I also don't like the way on one hand Toyota proclaims to be protecting owners rights by only releasing data to the NHTSA only if they have "written permission"from owners, coupled with assurances about how the data will be used...but on the other hand if an owner or their lawyers request the data directly for themselves? Well guess what? You can't have it, because they are worried about the limitations of the tool and they are protecting you from the potentially flawed information....ONLY THEY CAN HAVE.....that smells rotten....

For a company that usually proclaims being ahead of the curve, Toyota also hides behind the reality that providing a commercial way of downloading the data is not required until September 1st 2012..2013 model year. So this is one area they are not so gung ho on being ahead of compliance. How much you want to bet the 2013 EDR's are "changed" and reveal very limited information?

So I don't know, reading those "FAQ's" I might be able to say they aren't being "secretive" but they are being deceptive. They are openly telling you, that they are NOT going to openly tell anyone information recorded in their EDR's.

They leave themselves loopholes...the data and collection tool isn't scientifically validated...and set up enough hoops for the NHTSA and/or law enforcement to jump through that they could tie up revealing information forever. Basicly they will specifically cooperate only in the face of mandated laws once they are in affect, and with criminal investigations if faced with search warrants or a court order.

Sorry I don't come away reading that FAQ's page with a good feeling about Toyota's forthcomingness on the issue.

But should it be unexpected? Basicly Toyota has installed devices within vehicles that collect information that coud be exonerating or damning to themselves. It doesn't really suprise me that Toyota want's to exert as much control as possible over collecting, analysing and keeping this information to themselves.

I'm thinking they will only be as forthcoming as they absolutely legally MUST be and even in the light of that truth they will attach enough vagueness about the use and validity of information collected that they can "value" or "devalue" any information they do collect and are eventually forced to share.

I'd place bets that come 2012..2013 model year, that the EDR is significantly altered or limited in the information it collects and/or Toyota just decides to stop putting the into vehicles. This is where the NHTSA or other agencies could step in. Relying on manufacturers to provide devices that could collect information that might result in liability for that same manufacturer is like asking The Fox to install the alarm system on the Hen house.

 

At first, I was going to ask our local psychic to tell George of his error ..

But then I realized he knew it all along:

"[FONT=arial,helvetica]I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."

[/FONT]

 

Disc brakes are better at resisting brake fade, due to better heat dissipation. They are also better at self cleaning, since the pads stay in contact even when not braking (normal disc brakes, unlike the Prius disc brakes which retract the pads).

They are not better at reducing braking distance, given an equivalent pad area and contact pressure, unless braking is long or repetitive, inducing heat fade. They are also worse for fuel mileage because of the continuous contact (once again excepting the Prius).

With the Prius, brake fade is not much of an issue due to regenerative braking and engine braking. Rear disc brakes aren't much of an advantage on a Prius, unless you drive your Prius like a sports car and force a lot of friction braking.

As for the inclusion of four wheel disc brakes on many cars indicating that they are better, many features get added to consumer items simply because people think they are better and want them. Look at all the carbon fiber nonsense, where a cosmetic layer of carbon fiber is added as a veneer. Hemi engines are another good example. Hemispherical engines haven't been used for years, but people remember the name and think that it is somehow better. Now it's just a trademark, used to satisfy customer demand.

Tom

 

Absolutely! And this is the problem for Toyota - their credibility is blown.

Plus... with the details about the data a secret, no one (other than Toyota) knows what data is tracked, when the tracking occurs (WOT versus all the time), what sampling rates (1x/second, or?), and, and, and. But trust me, Toyota knows everything.

And this is where Toyotas problems are coming home to roost. Where there is smoke, there is fire.

I would expect that a formal regulation will be passed in the wake of the Toyota EDR experience that formalizes what data is captured, sampling rates, and the like. Things will be looking very similar to what is done on airplanes. This is Toyota's legacy.

 

Jury by mob . . . where after 1,000's say it enough, it becomes fact.

1,000's say the U.S. never landed on the moon~it was all staged
1'000's say Kennedy was shot by multiple shooters
1,000's say OJ was framed
1'000's say they were probed by aliens
etc

Believe it or not, there CAN be alternatives other than conspiracy ... if folks can simply sit on their hands a bit longer before breaking out the torches. Or you can continue to add to the thousands.

washingtonpost.com

Did you see this posted on PC? It helps lay people understand a bit better, other alternatives beyond conspiracy

 

And yet again we hear the plaintive wail,

This kind of desperate fanning of dying embers is really getting old.

Where there is smoke, there can also be a sputtering flame petering
out of its own accord from lack of fuel/oxygen/heat. And this I would
propose is the current situation. The anti-Toyota conflagration that
raged constantly a month ago has been shown for what it was; an
issue fanned into unsustainable heat by the press and other parties as
yet not identified.

Rather that trying to predict what is coming, why not wait and see
what the more reasoned inquiries and research has to say? Sure, in
the end, it might not support any one person's desires/agenda.

We shouldn't have to hear any more of this self-serving flat-nice person
guessing what the future holds. Quieter, more reasoned thinking has
come to the fore.

In the meantime, for those who must insist that where's there's
smoke, etc, lets have some fun;

Where There's Smoke, There's Cheech and Chong! -- the
deleted scenes -- there's a conspiracy in here somewhere, I'm not
kidding!

[ame="http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9pf5i_cheech-and-chong-deleted-scenes_fun"]Dailymotion - Cheech and Chong Deleted Scenes - a Funny video@@AMEPARAM@@http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/x9pf5i@@AMEPARAM@@x9pf5i[/ame]

 

I can just see this repeating after the next recall is announced. There will be a firestorm followed by the Toyota apologists and denial merchants trying to argue that there is nothing the matter and that it is time to move on.

In the mean time, Toyota is having to recall the affected cars. The first crash from sudden acceleration on a car that had the accelerator pedal modification made will put the issue right back above the fold on page one and at the top of the various news sites.

As much as you want it to go away, it is not going to go away any time soon.

 

It is a bizarre situation, Toyota seems to think if they advertise enough and talk about jobs it will go away. Are they that out to lunch in Japan? The longer this tact is used the bigger the stakes for Toyota in the US? Maybe they have gotten away with so much for so long they don't get it. I have said on here before how in my opinion they resemble gm circa 1980. Maybe they will be able to will it all away but it seems to me they may be trying to extinguish a fire with gasoline.

 

One of those cars that comes with 4-wheel disk brakes on all trim levels is the Gen III Prius.

I agree that it may have as much to do with public perception as it does with engineering.

 

This is really a privacy issue masquerading as a safety issue, and it's all obscured by Toyota's intellectual property agenda. Toyota doesn't want any competitor being able to dig into their drive-time system and collect the statistics from the black box. Nor, do they want anyone private, government or otherwise to be able to superanalyze data records from any of their vehicles.

I don't want my car's black box data accessible to any random law-and-order advocate to use to misinterpret, abuse or lay blame. And, I don't want any of it publicly accessible, accident or otherwise. Why should the government get to see exactly what I was doing in my car at any given moment? It's none of anyone's business. The facts of an accident -- skid marks, vehicle positions, speed, etc. -- speak clearly for themselves.

The danger of logging too much information is exactly that. The information develops a life of its own. Driver interpretation follows the machine. Hell, the black box could just as easily be fed incorrect, glitchy information -- the same information that causes a vehicle to go haywire. However, there are then a lot more statistics and numbers to be collected, subpoenaed and misinterpreted either for better or for worse!

The defect issue is a great reason to perform thorough data logging, and systems should be capable of recording vehicle statistics for monitoring long-term performance or hard-to-reproduce failures. The information should not be easily consumed, though. Unfortunately, I believe in most cars it is already this way.

 

+1
What with GPS & data logging history, you have the potential to end up ballancing a real tight rope. Privacy versus public safety ... whether it's accident reconstruction, criminal activity ... or your significant other out running around on you. George Orwell's 1984 predictions missed it by just a couple decades, but here we are.

.

 

Then you better cancel your cellular service. Just about every cellular phone sold today has a GPS chipset on the motherboard. The GPS chipset enables tracking your position to within a ~3 meter (~10 ft) circle. With a little bit of software, your exact speed can be determined as you move from point A to point B. This information is available instantaneously. Some of the cellular providers have set up web portals for LEOs to use to access the dataset.

 

Oh boy more billable hours for the lawyers to gather all this data which is now available, there go the legal costs again!

 

At the present state of cellphone gps I doubt that it can be used for positioning at that accuracy with any appreciable data rate. It can tell about where you are (probably where on the road), but not close enough to be useful in crash reconstruction. Take a look at the recorded position of a stationary gps receiver and you'll see how much position uncertainty there is in single samples of position. Accuracies as you quoted are for averaged positions not single samples. Additionally the accuracy is much dependent on how many satellites are in view and their positions and signal strengths to your phone. The other system used is cell phone tower triangulation which is even less accurate than a direct gps position. If there is onboard instrumentation, containing speed and accelerometer data with sufficient samples per second, then you can really reconstruct an accident.

 

With 3G service, it certainly can be used for positioning at the 3 meter CEP. More and more phones are 3G capable and the 3G service is available in more and more locations.

That is where the software comes into the equation. I have done comparisons between the GPS on my BlackBerry (which has the Sprint navigation application) and a Garmin 765 that I purchased a year ago. Mr. Garmin gets me to exactly the address I entered; whereas the BlackBerry with Sprint navigation gets me to around 10 to 15 feet on either side (it either says I have arrived before or after I get to the actual address) of the place I am driving to.

EDIT: The smartphone cellular phones are including accelerometers to implement gaming capability. The iPhone has an on-board accelerometer and a GPS chipset. If you as a handset manufacturer want to play in the smartphone market segment, you have to meet a minimum equipment specification that includes GPS and accelerometers.

 

I don't doubt your positional accuracy is possible, but only that the gps accuracy isn't good enough by itself to reconstruct an accident. ie positions of that accuracy at say 10 samples per second.

This sounds like engineer talk. Oh yeah I am one.

 

I don't doubt this ... I just don't know which games make use of use of an on-board accelerometer and a GPS chipset. Once again, the technical / gaming world has passed me by, now that my son is on his own and not there to bring me along with "what's new". What gaming options are there, and how does the car's equipment factor in?! (not that I'll play them)

 

It depends on the sampling rate of the GPS chipset. I am not a GPS application developer, so I don't know the details. But if the sampling rate is there, there is sufficient horsepower in the rest of the system to do the reconstruction.

Unfortunately, I am not a game expert either. The most sophisticated game for me is the BrickBreaker one on my CrackBerry. I am responding based on features that are advertised on the iPhone.