Prius Plug - in 2011

Yes, found it and changed my post while you where posting this

 

Are you thinking to do that too? If so, you will save $1K there, lucky u!

 

There is no kit available from Toyota for the existing Gen3 Prius (ZVW30).
The Gen3 Prius plug-in (ZVW35) is an individual model.

Ken@Japan

 

Ken,

Good to know that. Any idea about ZVW35 spec such as roughly how much and is it 2, 4, 6 or 8 KWH plug-in?

 

I have no idea.
Please remember the specifications for ZVW30 were shown at Detroit Show in January 2009 and the pricing was announced in April 2009.
We'll not be sure about them a few months before its launch.

Ken@Japan

 

I've only lived in two states (WA and CA) and I can for sure say that PG&E in CA has a baseline rate and then charges higher rates once you go beyond that baseline. Usually, the baselines are set quite low, unfortunately. The WA state utilities I'm familiar with (Seattle City Light and Puget Sound Energy) I believe also have tiering.

Side argument, on Power consumption - TiVo Community, I had an argument with someone who kept griping about their California electricity cost being $0.61/kwh on peak and $0.40 off peak w/the OP complaining about $0.40/kwh. Turns out the $0.61/kwh guy was paying only an average of $0.229/kwh.

He was griping about the prices charged in the higher tiers and ONLY quoting those prices and assigning his "power hungry"/expensive to operate (to him) TiVo only to those marginal rates.

 

Stupid question.

Prius drivers tend to be of a certain demographic.

Let's say these Prius drivers also live in a specific area. Wouldn't those cars drawing power from the same point in the grid be a serious hit on the system?

I mean, are we going to see massive blackouts again? Do we have the infrastructure for this?

When there are blackouts, the price of gas will be well cheaper than electricity.

 

Wouldn't say it's a stupid question at all. Would we see blackouts? I doubt it as EV's will only slowly (relatively) hit the market. Also, Prius owners are (and I'm going to generalise here) more environmentally conscious than the public at large. So, their houses would often be more energy efficient than others which could offset some of the losses?

If everyone moved to EV's overnight then yes we'd have a problem. But I think things will progress more slowly. Maybe in the sunny areas we'll see solar powered charging bays? Perhaps this could be used to entice EV owners to certain shops or malls? Who knows but I think it is going to be an interesting future with many business opportunities out there .

 

I need to give those guys a call and find out how much to charge 2KWH or 4KWH system overnight... I was told it is not that much, I need to verify first before putting a $3K system into my car.

 

Just spoke with them and according to them, it will cost $0.1 to charge 1KWH, therefore in MI, where they're, will cost $0.2 for 2KWH kit and $0.4 for 4KWH kit overnight charge.

 

This is an interesting assessment of EVs, from a hybrid enthusiast. The arguments make sense to me:
http://wastedenergy.wordpress.com/2010/03/03/plug-in-hype-rid/

 

I think he misses some points that do not support his view. For example, a BEV cuts out a lot of maintenance issues/costs. Also, a PHEV prius lets some people charge from the grid on their short trips, but also improves mpg even if one never plugs in, because more regen is recovered and the larger pack can be used in more ways.

Further, I disagree that the grid is dirtier than gasoline. Even if 100% coal, that is not true. And, the grid can improve its cleanliness over time with better coal tech and new renewable projects. No change in car required. Even allowing for transmission losses and existing coal plants, it is still cleaner than burning gasoline in a car.

Finally, one size does not fit all. If you drive 100 miles to work and 100 miles home each day, a Leaf is probably not your car unless it can do that in all conditions and not shorten battery life. But if your commute is 25 or 50 or 75 miles, and you don't do many long trips on that car, I think BEVs can be green.

Cost is an issue, but that will come into line with volume and better tech. Recall too that US gas prices will likely get more expensive.

 

On what basis would one state that grid is "cleaner" than gasoline?We consume more energy in the transportation sector, but the electric power sector produces more emissions of nearly every type. If you think "clean coal" is viable, why not cleaner combustion of gasoline too? So how exactly does one conclude that grid-powered cars are cleaner? (And last time I checked, burning gasoline didn't produce any nuclear waste...)

And while it is true that electric motors require less maintenance, and that can make up some of the cost differential to the consumer, let's not forget that electric vehicles would also require added generation, which a) require maintenance, and b) are more expensive to everyone else, even if it saves the person who bought the car some money (which is highly unlikely). One point you make that I'll agree with is that BEV's make more storage capacity available for regenerative braking. But how much does that even matter? My understanding is that a well-designed hybrid like the Prius hardly ever has to use the disc brakes anyway, unless you need to slow down rapidly - in which case, would the same issue not apply to a BEV or plug-in? Correct me if I'm wrong here...

What makes one think the battery costs are going to go down anyway? We've been making plenty of batteries for plenty of things for plenty of time - the batteries used in cars are really nothing new, in fact they are a technology already very close to the peak of their efficiency. If lithium batteries for cars become viable (and I'm not at all convinced they will) how will they be fundamentally different from arrays of slightly larger cell phone batteries? Most of the cost is associated with the material itself, which is already getting harder to find even as demand for it is increasing.

But even if you grant these claims that a Leaf could save you money directly, if you add up all the tax credits displaced onto taxpayers and in turn onto the costs of all the other things the government does, and costs of new electrical generation displaced to ratepayers, electric vehicles, should they become cheaper than regular cars, would really be just a very selfish way of saving money.

You may also want to check out some of my other posts on renewable energy too. Might shatter your optimism and get you to change some of your views on how much renewable energy there really is available to replace the grid we have now, let alone power millions of new BEVs.

Again, let's not put the cart before the horse here....you need a horse to power that cart!

 

Here you go mr negative, I suggest you read this:

http://www.evnut.com/docs/evs-wont_work.doc

Also, only %15-20 of gasoline burned actually makes it to the wheels for propulsion, the remainder is waste heat. A much larger percentage of electricty is converted to motive force. Of course there are losses with any energy conversion, charging the EV, there are losses, etc. But, electricity can be made cleanly, and the future of the entire world depends on that happening, if not, we are all doomed.

 

But it does get our soldiers killed...

Sorry, no time to play right now. At a later date if I remember I will reply.

 

Now now, I don't think there's anything negative per se about what I have to say here. I just think a little healthy skepticism (not to mention some basic knowledge of thermodynamic principles) helps to separate marketing hype from reality, something most of the mainstream coverage of PHEV's and BEV's has largely missed. In any event, it is correct to say electricity "can" be made cleanly, but that is a far cry from saying it "is" or "will be."

Of course no one vehicle fits everyone's needs. But if EV's won't go big, that seems to collapse the notion that production at scale will bring down the costs. And if someone really wants an EV, and it suits their needs well, then by all means they should go for it. One might make great sense for someone who already has a solar-powered house - i.e. someone wealthy who invests that wealth in green tech. That is not an accurate description of very many people, though, and misses the point that repowering with renewables is far trickier than most optimists are willing to admit. The even larger point that the author of the "EV Nut" article is missing is that these vehicles shouldn't be subsidized, since that, as I mentioned earlier, simply displaces the added cost onto taxpayers and electric ratepayers who do not benefit from purchasing the vehicle, while draining funds that could otherwise be used to invest in far more meaningful green technologies. And how much of the energy in coal actually makes it to your wall socket? Steam turbines are not much more efficient than spark-ignition engines, and diesel engines are more efficient...

As for oil getting soldiers killed, of course that is true, and I am not one to argue in favor of burning fossil fuels of any kind. But what is the primary fuel used to operate the equipment that mines uranium, coal, and battery materials, and build electric grids and generating facilities? And unless EV's go big enough to cause their own supply problems, they won't make a very big dent in petroleum consumption...there's a reason my recommendation for "green travel" is walking

 

So you are in favor of eliminating subsidies to oil, also?

Also, where do we go from here if we cannot do better than the current Prius for efficiency? I only see what does not work in your argument. So adding a plug to essentially the current Prius makes it bad, even though it will get better mpg without actually plugging in? Are you sure you are not over generalizing a bit?

 

Of course I favor eliminating subsidies to oil! If you read my blog, you'll see that I favor a transition to a slower-pace, less mechanized culture in general, and that is a necessary part of it.

I'm not sure how adding a plug to the Prius on its own adds to the mpg without plugging it in. Can you explain?

As for the "where do we go from here" - we need some of everything! Permaculture, walkable communities, mass transit, more efficient personal vehicles (when vehicles are necessary), renewable energy, and a culture that appreciates all of these things...everything.

 

EV's will hopefully suceed despite the ramblings of Ludites

We are not likely to change the way Americans think and live. BEV adoption will get more common place, eventually most cars will be powered by electricity, simply because the cost of gas will be out of sight. It's not only "rich" people who will benefit from BEV adoption, it's everyone. Face it, there are better things to do with oil than burn it to power automobiles. It is a limited resource, and as developing countries fight for what little is left, more wars, price instabiliy, tensions with other countries wil be escalated. We need solutions, not more useless, old ideas. Embrace the future of automotive propulsion or be left behind.

 

Mitch - if we "Luddites" as you say (I know these concepts are hard for the older generation to master, just try) cannot change the culture, I bet the peak energy, water, and soil crisis can!