In all fairness...I've done the commute at 65MPH and I sure didn't get 52MPG on my commute. Now, it's hilly and we're running tC rims, so yeah, it's my problem. Let's call it 46-47. I could also choose to slow down in the Jetta and/or go back to 16 inch rims...I can do 42-43 if I drive 65 in the Jetta, but I don't. Finally, the ABS mention was not that I don't like ABS (I love it) but that I hate the ABS on the Prius. There is a HUGE differnece between VW ABS and Toyota (well, at least Prius) ABS. I understand there's a limitation due to the transfer from Regen to real braking...but I still hate it. In all fairness, I can't comment on the '10 ABS. I know it still has the same required transfer, but I haven't experienced it first hand. Look. I'll say the same thing I say in the similar thread on TDIclub. I like both cars and I think they both have very strong merits. If we're going to a city or we expect traffic, we typically take the Prius. It's very convenient, and more economical in traffic, and I like having the Nav. For my current daily commute and for family highway-based road-trips, I prefer the Jetta.
Requires level ground, stock or near-stock vehicle, and standard day temperatures (aka., 60-70F). Sunday I was in 50F weather traveling over the hills above the Tennessee River Valley and could barely make 50 MPG against a 15 knot headwind. We've had Prius community discussions about 65, 70, 75, or higher cruise speeds. Pretty much everyone realizes that some folks find it more cost-effective (saving in trip time,) to burn more fuel and get there faster. It is their fuel budget and choice. Can you provide something more descriptive of the differences? That goes back to having the right tool for the right job. When faced with the empirical data, often the Jetta advocates revert to seat comfort or other non-performance based metrics. That is OK since hitting my head on the Honda Insight made it clear that my body and that car don't match in any way shape or form. However, smaller people would enjoy the Insight. I avoid getting into a "looks nicer" or "feels better" discussion because that is personal taste. It is only when empirically verifiable claims are made, ones that we have data, that we need to go back to facts and data. Bob Wilson
The pulse rate is much higher (faster) and the overall control of the ABS is better in the VW...and it was in the 2003 Jetta as well. The Prius seems to always lurch into ABS mode when it first crosses over and the pulses are less frequent once it's fully engaged. As such, the steering is less responsive in the Prius if your ABS is engaged. It also seems as if the Prius takes less to engage the ABS than the Jetta does. Let me see if I can dig up my original posts about my ABS concerns, and I might have better wording there. Honestly, if I were to list strong dislikes about the Prius, the ABS/Traction Control combo (and much more-so the ABS) would really be my only one.
This is the NHW20? With my wife's ZVW30, I tried some heavy braking including ice and snow trying to recreate the brake pause. What surprised me was how I didn't have the sensation of pulsing like I did with our NHW11. I didn't test the NHW11 in the same conditions as I was trying for the 'brake pause.' I have a nice, steep hill, grade greater than 8%, that I can crest at 50 mph. What I'll do is wait for wet weather and try both cars, descending the grade, and do an emergency stop. Since I have a sensitive accelerometer, I'll be able to measure each and at 320 samples per second, even plot the ABS pulses. BTW, I also did some maximum acceleration, climbs up a steep, snow covered street with steering inputs. My wife's ZVW30 worked perfectly ... well what would I know ... we only get snow that sticks on streets every 3-4 winters. But we had a good 1-1.5 inches that day ... melted the next day. Bob Wilson
There should always be ABS pulse, that's the point of ABS. Maybe I need to change my term? ABS will apply the brakes multiple times per second to allow for steering while stopping. The Jetta has many more applications per second than the Prius does, thus the steering is maintained better, and the ABS activation is much less obtrusive to the goal (controlling the car while stopping). Also, I swear I feel a little brake pause, but I guess I'm used to it. I have no real point of reference with the 2010s that actually are supposed to have the 'real' issue, though. This is a 2008...so that's what, a NHW20?
The point of ABS is not about pulsing the brakes. The point of ABS is to keep the brakes from locking, which is why it is called Antilock Braking System. Pulsing is the method most commonly used to keep the brakes from locking, but it is not the objective of the system. The pulse rate on my Gen II Prius is high enough that I can't feel it. On older cars I could feel the pulses or hear a buzzing sound. I can't with my Gen II. Tom
I prefer to reference cars by the model versus the year: 2010-current -> ZVW30 (1.8L) 2004-2009 -> NHW20 (1.5L) 2001-2003 -> NHW11 (1.5L) 1997-2000 -> NHW10 (1.5L) not sold outside of Japan I'm pretty sure an ABS system doesn't have to pulse by using a faster wheel rotation sensor and a linear valve to modulate the braking force. One of the key aspects of the ZVW30 redesign was addition of two linear valves. We have a rainy, slushy day so I'll grab the accelerator this evening and try ABS braking on the hill with our NHW11 and ZVW30. I don't have the NHW20 to test. We should have good data tonight or tomorrow. I need to do my testing on the hill after 6:00 PM when there will be less traffic around. Bob Wilson
It is likely that its just a semantic issue, but the typical abs system needs to pulse. The pulse is caused by a release of the brake when the wheel stops, then re-engagement of the brake when it is spinning again. The thresholds for these changes affect the pulse rate (do brakes release after the wheel is stopped for 50ms, or do they release when the wheel slows more than other wheels?, at what speed do they get reapplied). Since the brake pedal on the prius is not mechanically linked during the application, the feedback to the drivers foot may also be different. So the car does not need to necessarily transmit the pulse feedback. On my zvw30, pre-software change, the pulses felt as if they were coming at a lower frequency than previous abs cars. I may be feeling groups of pulses, not individual ones though. The threshold for engaging abs also seemed lower than on previous cars I've driven. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but a difference in philosophy. I prefer the Germanic design decision, but understand Toyota's. Bob, I'm interested in seeing your accelerometer test on the brakes so that we know what the car is really doing. It would be interesting to know if thresholds changed between software versions, but that might require having cars with both versions of software and some instrumentation that could read the wheel speed sensors. btw: I'm about ready to turn my iphone an accelerometer recording device so I can do testing myself. Can you point me to the thread to do this?
A Jetta? :crazy: :nono: To the OP (or anyone who considered a Jetta)... put the crack pipe down... you've clearly had enough...
...and the Wagon has more cargo space, and Diesel fuel is less than RUG (where I am, and many places) in the summer... Reliability? Can't really say. I've had the Prius for 28k and the Jetta for 20k. No repairs, warranty work, etc on either one. Both pretty reliable in my book as of right now. 195k on the last TDI without seeing the dealer once shows that there's an existence theorem for more of the same on the Jetta. The accounts of most here suggest that there's an existence theorem for more of the same on the Prius. Now, I meticulously maintain my vehicles, so maybe someone else would have more issues? Not sure, but the thead title does say did you... Look, I'm not trying to convince a board full of Prius drivers to go buy a TDI. Frankly, if you're happy with your purchase, I'm happy for you. Just offering counterpoints, that's all.
I'm using "Dynolicious Logger" but testing with my iPod suggests the data is only accurate within a fairly short interval, 30-60 seconds. I'm seeing significant drift that is difficult to factor out. But if you can include a complete stop and start in the recorded data, it is usable. BTW, I have no problem with this thread other than it probably needs to be in "Other vehicle" forum in a subforum that needs to be titled "Diesel" or "TDI". That way the visiting diesel advocates will have their own sandbox and we can concentrated on the ZVW30 Prius. When the TDI advocates, like "nownow" and a few others, come and speak sensibly with attention to technical details and accuracy, we all learn something. But ultimately the purchase decision comes down to requirements, which in some cases are not empirically measurable ("Don't you love the smell of napam in the morning?" Apocalypse Now). Bob Wilson
I think this has been sufficiently beat to death - the Prius is much stronger in most areas, but if one of its weaknesses is a sacred cow to you, that may be enough for you to blind your eyes to everything else and go with a TDI.
VW can trick out the TDI engine all they like: it still has to work through a broken-down old POS conventional transmission instead of a highly reliable power-split device. So there :_>
As an ex turbo-diesel car owner, I found this thread quite interesting. If you want to buy a compact diesel car in US, you have a limited choice (here the title of this topic, more or less focused on the comparison between the Prius and only one diesel car, the VW Jetta). Vice versa here (I mean in Europe) turbo-diesel powered cars are quite popular, due to the fuel economy that this kind of propulsion allows, coupled to the remarkable performances modern turbo-diesel engine provides, generally better than petrol engines of the same size. However, we have also a different “field of operations”, with higher speed limits than in US, and *a lot* more expensive fuels. These facts give, apparently, a wide advantage to diesels in Europe in respect to petrol engine cars, and maybe even in respect to hybrid petrol cars . Despite that, I traded my 7 years old turbo-diesel car, in mint conditions, and I bought a new Prius. The reasons for that? Basically three. First, I was tired to spend so much money for the maintenance: modern turbo diesel engines are complicated and costly: my car had 160.000 km when I sold it, and the probability to have the need replacing, for instance, the injectors was becoming high: 6 injectors, 1000 € each=6000 €, plus labor costs… more than the residual value of the car! . The second reason was that I wanted to have a car with the automatic gear. The conventional automatic gear is another quite expensive piece of hardware, the high torque of turbo-diesel engines (for instance, mine had 320 Nm at 1400 rpm) tends to wear them quickly. Shops do not repar them they just replace the automatic gear with a refurbished one: 5000 € plus labor...The third reason, is that turbo-diesels pollute. Even though I was respecting thoroughly the maintenance schedule, when accelerating briskly my car emitted a cloud of grey exhaust. It is called “particulate”, that means particularly small and nasty cancerogenous particles. Recent diesel cars have special filters for the particulate, but these filters represent another maintenance issue, especially if one drives at low speed/low engine rpms, like in the crowded European cities. Sure, the Prius is less performant, less comfortable, and even fuel consumptions are only marginally better, than my old turbo-diesel car…. But … I did the right thing. Ciao
Interesting perspective and good points. Was your last car a Skoda? Just guessing by your avatar. Hope I identified it correctly.
