Did you consider a Jetta TDI before going Prius?

Interesting question, we'll have to use the 'way back' machine:


Using the 'way back machine' to go to October 2005 when we bought our first Prius, these were the EPA stickers for both cars in 2005:

• 2005 Jetta TDI - 38 City / 46 Hwy / 41 Combined
• 2003 Prius - 52 City / 45 Hwy / 48 Combined (bought used in 2005)

Needing a commuting car, there was no reason to consider a Jetta TDI in 2005 when we bought our first Prius.

Resetting the 'way back machine' to May 2009 when we bought our second Prius, these were the EPA stickers for both cars:

• 2010 Jetta TDI - 30 City / 42 Hwy / 34 Combined(*)
• 2010 Prius - 51 City / 48 Hwy / 50 Combined

The other requirements such as interior space, quietness, advanced technology and electric vehicle capability also made the 2010 Prius an easy pick.

Bob Wilson

(*) Technically the 2010 Jetta TDI numbers were not available in May 2009 but since these numbers are better than the 2009 Jetta TDI and they are 'same model year,' we'll give the MPG handicap points to VW.

 

I would have considered a small diesel, but in 2006 they were very scarce in our area. I drove a Toyota turbo diesel in France that I liked a lot.

Tom

 

I have to say, the Volkswagen Golf is definitely something I am taking a look at before I jump in and buy a Toyota Prius. I think I have made the summary of what I consider to be the positives and negatives of each of the vehicles. I am also considering the Golf versus the Jetta mainly because it's a hatchback and it's made in Germany versus Brazil. I normally don't care what country it's built-in, but ever since 2006 when the Golf production has been moved from Mexico to Germany Consumer Reports ratings on quality have absolutely gone through the roof. The car went from being below average, more or less poor, quality to outstanding. However it's only been three years, I think after five years one will see if the quality is good. Here's the summary of what I think.

Toyota Prius

Pros:

larger interior, the ability to start easy in frigid temperatures, available factory remote car starter which does not bypass the immobilizer, heated mirrors, backup camera, better headlights, better fuel economy in the city, no need to change timing belt, proven reliability in the short-term, Smart Key, LED headlights.

Cons:
total price is expensive, handling and steering feedback is not great, repairs can get expensive after 10 years of ownership [going to keep the car to the end], acceleration is definitely adequate but nothing more, the more complicated it gets the more things can break down and the more expensive it is to fix, generation one is experiencing battery failures which are expensive and only time will tell if the new ones are any better as they have not aged as much.

Volkswagen Golf

Pros:

A lot better handling and steering feedback, acceleration feels more brisk, in Canada fuel can be up to 20% cheaper in the summer and about the same price in the winter, great ergonomics inside, when you factor in the cheaper fuel then the fuel economy is similar on the highway [I will be doing mostly highway driving], total price is still much cheaper, heated seats, diesel engine is much simpler than a gasoline engine [no ignition system, the air to fuel ratio is not maintained so no need to throttle the air], simple and durable design is much easier to diagnose and fix, diesel is a lubricant so engine lasts a long time, no worry about expensive battery or generator dying [it seems the battery and inverters seem to fail a lot more than the generators] for the first 10 years the hybrid components have been found to be relatively reliable but not for the five years after that

Cons:

In the last three years quality seems good but quality in the past has been bad so it's not proven, nobody ever said anything good about the two dealers in the area, no heated mirrors in Canada, no block heater available [inline heater can be installed which is not as good], once it ages it might have problems starting in cold weather if not plugged in, timing belt has to be replaced for $1000 every hundred thousand kilometers [this might be reduced to $300 since I know the mechanic that can do it for less], poor headlights, no backup camera, only aftermarket remote car starters which bypass the immobilizer, in the city in frigid temperatures problems heating the passenger compartment in frigid temperatures [will drive mostly on the highway]

As you can see from above I will have to test drive both vehicles twice before deciding. In Canada the Volkswagen Jetta was actually the Green car of the year and not the Toyota Prius. The fuel economy was definitely not as good but the car was a lot more fun to drive. And if it's ecologically not as good, it's socially better. What I mean is while it does pollute slightly more [still pollutes less than gasoline engine] the workers at the German plant or treated a lot better than at Toyota plants. Remember in Germany people in these factories get 6 to 7 weeks of holiday a year and a much better pension. When it comes to employee benefits the United States and Japan don't compare. Obviously both companies are good as they are neck and neck duking it out for the biggest manufacturer in the world. So obviously both companies are doing things right. Their world market share is also growing so that does say something. Volkswagen has definitely packed the Chinese [in dollars now the largest market in the world] in the Brazilian market which is growing. Both companies are facing challenges, Volkswagen is fighting with reliability issues and perception that it actually deserves as a result of the issues, Toyota is of course fighting the onslaught of American protectionism.

In the end it's a fight between the very perfected, simple yet less efficient diesel technology versus an extremely efficient, very reliable in the short-term yet complex and unproven technology in the long-term. I guess only time will tell.

Final Answer Yes, sort of.

 

Prius has been proven to be reliable. It is very simple in term of its mechanics. The emission control system is also very simple and reliable whereas Diesel's emission system is complex and not proven (band-aid before they find way to reduce it during combustion). Believe it or not, Diesel drivetrain has more moving part than Prius' HSD. Also consider the warranty coverage of each car.

 

Absolute bogus. Diesel engines have been around for many years and they are PROVEN to be more reliable than tradition gasoline engine. If anything you have to worry about, it is the other pieces of the car. There is a reason why diesel command such high resale value! Mechanics would much prefer to work on a diesel car than a Prius simply because they know more about how a diesel work!

 

Are you are bundling the modern high pressure common rail Diesel with turbo charger with the good old truck diesel engines? These modern "clean enough" Diesels have new unproven exhaust system. I heard in Europe, there are issue with reliability and ease of maintenance with them.

Resale value is part due to its limited availability. Modern Diesels require computers to work on as well. You wouldn't want to take your modern diesel to a mechanic with knowledge of truck diesels.

Since hybrids are outselling TDIs by a huge amount, in the future most mechanics will be more familiar with hybrids.

 

This is the type of stuff VW TDI fan boys like to claim... Take a look at the engine reliability of the VW Jetta TDI vs. the Prius. Which is more reliable?

 

Some mechanics will call themselves diesel mechanics , but their specialty may be 20 year old Mercedes diesels. No way I would want them to work on any TDI from the last 10 years.

carinpoland, are you sure the new Golf does not have heated mirrors? My 2001 is only a mid trim level, but it has them and I would be quite surprised if the new one did not. Also, the inline heaters from Frostheater work quite well. Better than any block heater I have seen. They are much more powerful than the average block heater (1000w vs 400w).

 

I don't know how I missed it, but it seems that the Golf also has heated mirrors. Maybe I was looking at interior mirrors before. I am correcting myself, both cars have heated mirrors which I believe is an absolute must for safe driving in Canada where the temperatures get cold. On the other hand, I just found out that regular seats can be modified to be heated in any vehicle for $350 for two. The price actually includes parts and labor and apparently it's not such a big deal to take the upholstery off and put it back on again if you know what you are doing. I know somebody who did this in his Highlander. They actually take the seat cover off and put in seat warmers underneath the fabric so it looks like original. So both the VW golf gain an extra positive as well as the Toyota Prius gains a positive as heated seats can be added at minimal cost.

 

I am absolutely not doubting the figures you have posted. I first have to correct myself, the Volkswagen golf was actually made in Brazil and not in Mexico for the North American market. The Volkswagen Jetta is still made in Mexico, and so I don't believe that the Jetta has made such a magnificent improvement in quality. They may have improved, or the cars were simply more reliable when they are new.

The Volkswagen golf has moved production from Brazil to Germany in the city that is also home to Volkswagen headquarters. The plant may have a very different methodology of building cars in terms of quality, the parts suppliers might be very different in Germany and I would not be surprised if Volkswagen is trying out new technology or process of production to improve quality at this plant. I think improvement in the parts manufacturers has probably a lot to do with it, and I wouldn't be surprised if they use very different parts in Brazil as the geography would make it much more convenient so. A lot of parts manufacturers have factories very near the actual assembly of the car.
Germany is the second biggest exporter of goods in the world, bigger than the United States which has four times the population. They tend to adopt very well to the world market and they think they've begun to realize that quality has been killing them lately. All German auto manufactures seem to have bottomed out in quality. I am suspecting that their approach to cost cutting has not been very successful initially and are now starting to make progress. Since the quality of all German manufactured cars was affected, I am guessing that the parts manufacturers which they share have a large blame in that. I'm sure if the process works, they will try to transplant the technology to all of the other plants. Four years is a short time to see any improvement in quality.

Try looking up Consumer Reports data on reliability of the Volkswagen golf and not the Volkswagen Jetta. I stated above, I am interested in the Golf and not the Jetta. Three years of data is not a lot, but I think you have to agree things are starting to look a lot better. I think in a couple of years if the quality remains so good I think they are going to have an awesome alternative to the hybrid in Canada at least.

Also the data does not take into account that a 2001 Toyota Prius might have lots of electrical issues. But at $4000 Canadian to replace a battery or even $2000 to replace an inverter is a lot. Especially when you consider how much the vehicle is worth at that age. That's not the same thing as losing the defrosting on your back windshield or a minor electrical glitch. This is something you absolutely need to make it go and it's very expensive. I don't even want to talk about losing the generator [which have been found to be absolutely reliable] but are more expensive than the car is worth at the time. All of a sudden, you have to look at is it worth replacing the battery for the savings in fuel cost. So I am looking at the 2001 Prius cost of maintenance in 2013 for example. It does not look promising right now. And if you have to replace your car every nine years, environmental benefits also decline versus replacing the car every 16 to 18 years. Yes this is how much I average on the car.

 

There is no doubt, just looking at the engine, the diesel is much simpler than the gasoline engine by itself. The gasoline engine must maintain fuel to a ratio by throttling the intake air to match the amount of fuel injected. That's a combination of sensors for the mass airflow, butterfly valves to restrict the air and it must be done properly at all RPM, loads and changing RPM. There is a system associated with making sure the spark plug fires at the right time and with the right voltage depending on the state of the spark plug. Both of these systems are absent in a diesel engine leaving basically everything else the same. The forces involved in a diesel engine are much greater so that is why everything must be heavy-duty, which translates to expensive.

Where the simplicity of the hybrid comes in is in the transmission. I agreed there is a lot less moving parts in the transmission and the two generators. I also believe that the computer system in a modern car is a lot more reliable than most of the mechanical systems. So working in industry I have found that some old mechanical systems can actually have better reliability than modern electronic ones. Where I believe the hybrid is more complex and less reliable in the long-term is in its inverters and battery. I think the technology behind the two devices can be made as reliable if not more so than a transmission, that these hybrids have not been long enough for the technology to be perfected. And let's face it, diesel engines are very well understood and they have been found in buses and trucks for the longest time. Modern trucks and buses use the same common rail diesel technology of the cars. Certainly, the generation one has proven that the batteries can become an issue in the long-term. Trying to find a good hybrid mechanic at a reasonable price is not easy in my area. With all of the heavy-duty diesels used in industrial equipment, trucks and buses and ships and locomotives I would hardly say you're going to find a lot more hybrid mechanics and diesel ones in the next 20 years.

 

@carinpoland: Atkinson cycle gas engine with synergy support from electric motor simplified those complexity you mentioned. Modern Diesel also has turbo charger that you did not mention. Diesel therefore has more complexity and moving parts.

Many things were improved since Gen 1 Prius. The leak from the HV battery cells that caused corrosion has been fixed. The seal to prevent water leaking into the inverter has been fixed. Gen 2 and 3 Prius is much more refined than how you like to pick on Gen 1 and imply to all gens.

Keep driving the same old car may not be better for the environment. Majority of the pollution is created by driving it rather than manufacturing. We are talking about tons every year but the car is in thousands of pound. If the new car cut down the driving emission notably, the affect is greater. You have to consider how many percentage of the car can be recyclable as well.

If you are looking for Golf and the Prius, you know they are a class different in size right?

 

Passenger space is virtually identical. Where the Prius wins is cargo space.

 

Careful what you ask for:

Consumer Reports. For the 2001 Prius, use this link.

Sorry but Consumer Reports asked actual owners of each vehicle and we don't have to guess what they reported. It is quite a bit different from "might." Might includes the possibility that all of the air molecules might suddenly clump in the far corner of the room plunging us into a vacuum and we would die. Please, use empirical data versus FUD speculation.

So in 2005 when I was shopping, the Golf ratings speak for themselves. By May 2009, the Prius had an established track record, already posted. Having seen the Prius systems up close, I knew there would first model problems but the base vehicle would be and remains a much better fit for our requirements:

• urban commuting
• highway driving
• interior space
• cold weather

Bob Wilson

ps. Some diesel FUD:

1. Diesel runaway and engine destroyed - worn piston rings can leak crank case oil into the pistons and completely bypass the injector system. When this happens, then engine begins to runaway and as it runs faster and faster, more engine oil is injected into the cylinders accelerating until pistons, piston rods and other parts depart. The engine disassembles itself.
2. High pressure diesel injection - a leak in the high pressure system emits a stream of diesel that cuts and penetrates the skin of the mechanic or owner reaching into the engine compartment. Literally it becomes a diesel fuel knife.

 

Just so you are aware, Atkinson cycle gas engine in Prius runs above 75% calculated load majority of the time. Prius does not throttle with air intake but instead changes the RPM. This virtually eliminates pumping loss. It is made super easy because of the e-motors and battery. If the power demand drops below 15 hp, the gas engine is shutdown completely. On the other hand, Diesel engine need to worry about idling when it is not needed.

 

Yes, I definitely considered the VW. What I didn't like were some pretty basic things: Body lines, build feel, resale value and mileage.

I think the Jetta TDI is basically an ugly car, and it has none of the flair or panache of late 90s VWs. Also, the build feel was more of a tin can than I felt in the Prius.

The reasons I went with the Prius definitely included Toyota's perceived dedication to quality and reliability. This translates (well, translated) into high resale value. I did not see this in the Jetta TDI.

Also, the mileage was ludicrously lower than the Prius.

So, what did the 2010 Prius signify to me? With the body redesign it is a gorgeous, sporty vehicle. With drivetrain improvements it is snappy off the line and more driveable than its predecessors. Add in the component of environmentalism to support a great cause, and the Prius owner has (well, had) the modern sports car of the new millenium.

To me, it was like buying a Camaro in 1967, a 280-Z in 1978, an Integra in 1988 or any other car that was an ultimate achievement in driving technology and completely representative of its generation.

 

TDI usually carry twice as many miles as a normal piston car, do the reports count that to their report? Absolutely not. It's like my old fart neighbor who claims she only had two accidents in 15 years (she drives less than 3000 miles a year) vs me who had two accident in 10 years (I drive 22K miles a year).

 

When I totaled the 03 TDI and ended up with the the 09 Jetta Wagon, I considered a Prius. Fortunately I didn't have to test drive one since we had one. The 2010 Gen-3 wasn't available yet, and I needed a car, so my options were clear.

I opted for the Jetta because:
- Gen-2 has so little cargo room. Needed more.
- I *like* driving a standard. N/A on Prius.
- New, it was still cheaper at 26k than an optioned Pk-6. Didn't want cloth.
- Sunroof. Huge. Love it. N/A in the Gen-2.

Had the Gen-3 been out, I may have looked harder, but probably not. I like the 6-speed too much, and I dislike a few things I dislike quite distinctly on the Prius. Brakes (hate hate hate the ABS), highway ride at 70-75, and the seat comfort are all things I can't live with in my daily driver. So Jetta it was.

I get 40MPG highway at 70-75. The Gen-2 gets 41-42 on the same commute with the 17s we have on it. It's a wash. It's a nice enough car, but I'm happy with the decision.

Edit: Plus, I really have to pay $28800 for a Gen-3 with a sunroof? With cloth. Really? Wow. My Jetta Wagon with Pano Roof was a $26,600 sticker (and I got it for less), add the Auto and you're at $27,700. Toss in Nav on the Jetta to make them identical and the price is within a few bucks. I hate the way that Toyota bundles so much with the roof. On a III you need to get Nav. Add leather and you're over $31k after the roof. Yikes.

 

Requirements analysis includes understanding the facts and data:

	Column 1	Column 2	Column 3	Column 4
0	parameter	Jetta Wagon	NHW20 Prius	ZVW30 Prius *
1	luggage volume	33 ft{3}	16 ft{3}	22 ft {3}
2	manual trans	Y	N	N
3	sun roof	Y	N	Y
4	ABS brakes	N(?)	Y	Y
5	70-75 mph comfort	Y	N	?
6	seat	Y	N	?
7	hwy MPG	40	41-42	45-46

* ZVW30 Prius was not available at the time a decision had to be made.

It was unfair to include incomplete references to the ZVW30 Prius since it was not an option at the time. A strawman by another name is still a fiction created by the poster who apparently has not evaluated the ZVW30 beyond the price. So it falls upon us to supply the missing facts and data in the original posting.

The author did not mention, city mileage. Should the author's driving patterns change to urban commuting, city mileage might become more important. But the emphasis on high-speed travel suggests a salesman or service technician with a widely dispersed area.

It has been my experience that long distance, 1.5L Prius driving has lower fatigue levels compared to our previous, gas-only vehicles, Camry, Caravan, Echo, Fury station wagon, VW Minivan, and Chevette. The reduced Prius engine noise and vibration allows me to drive over 700 miles per day without being exhausted when I arrive. These long distances were in a 1.5L NHW11 Prius cruising at a fuel efficient, 65 mph getting 52 MPG. Still, driving at 65 mph may not be an option for the original poster but the cost per mile savings are impressive:

• 52 MPG @ 65 mph (1.5L Prius) - 30% cheaper, 14% slower than Jetta @75 mph
• 40 MPG @ 70-75 mph (Jetta Wagon) - 23% costlier, 13% faster than 1.5L Prius @65 mph
• 45 MPG @ 75 mph (1.8L Prius) - 12% cheaper, same speed as Jetta

Today, I get about $.50/mile for buisness travel. So with the 1.8L Prius, a 12% fuel savings adds up quickly. Someone who drives long distances, accumulating say 20,000 or more miles per year would definitely get a monetary reward driving a 1.5L Prius at 65, the speed of many Interstate truckers. The would even be ahead driving a 1.8L Prius at 75 mph.

Bob Wilson