calculation details of Volt's 230mpg city estimate

I propose the EPA use a system like this:
EV range with a CO2 measure (nice info but not necessary) and a kwh per mile rating

Ev range+CS (range extender mode)= 100 miles Kwh+MPG= true cost

a plain CS mpg (the cs mpg could be grouped in with the ev+cs mode stats).

As a side note does the volt support a quick charge option? if the Leaf only takes 26 minutes, then the volt should take like 10 minutes?

 

Actually, there's a very easy way to do it. Tesla ran the Roadster on the EPA course, and came up with a combined city/highway figure of 245 mile range.

So for the Volt: Run the car on the EPA course, with a full charge, and see how far it goes before the ICE kicks in.

Then start over in "CS" mode and measure the gas consumption for an MPG number.

Then publish the numbers. Simple!!!

Actually, this information would be even easier to provide: Both the electric heater and the electric A/C will have a BTU rating and an amperage rating. If they tell us how many amps they draw on full, and how much heat or cooling they put out on full, we can estimate our consumption based on our weather conditions. Winter time in Minnesota you will draw more battery than I will in Spokane, etc.

These numbers do not require testing. Just give us the specs from the equipment. And of course the mpg in CS mode and the range in EV mode.

SIMPLE, SIMPLE, SIMPLE!!!

Except of course that GM is a criminal organization that profits by lies and deception, and refuses on principle to tell the buyer anything.

 

It isn't the range that is in question. The EPA also gave the Tesla a rating of 135mpg 'equivalent'. I don't think that is accurate, do you?
As I said before, the regulations need to change to allow for different types of measurements. Currently GM is following the current regulations.
Now, that said, I agree with your criticisms of GM and with your criticism of how regulations don't allow for a meaningful efficiency number. But I don't blame GM for using the system that is currently in place.

 

Range is precisely what's in question, since with a known battery capacity in kWh, stating the range is the same as stating the Wh per mile or miles per kWh.

I don't know anything about the EPA's notion of mpg for an electric car, but when the production prototype car was run through the EPA tests, Tesla put on its blog the range the car got on the course, as well as the fact that the more aggressive driving the car was designed for would give significantly less range, and very conservative driving would give slightly longer range.

It would not surprise me if GM's lobbyists wrote the EPA's "equivalency" formulas that allowed them to claim 230 mpg.

 

this is an awful lot of angst regarding two cars that are probably never going to happen. and if they do, it won't likely be soon. don't believe the hype!

 

bob klutz claims the future is hybrids. he just doesn't understand why or how to get there. are they betting the farm? they say they are, but i havn't seen any figures. are we subsidizing it? sadly, yes.

 

p.s., best reason for the angst.

 

I'm confused by this. They're betting the farm on a product that at best will appeal to a very small segment of the population???

GM has brainwashed its customers to want enormous cars. It has deceived them into believing that bigger is safer. Under real-world driving, most owners will probably still do half their driving on gasoline, which means they'll have to buy gas and plug in. They'll know they are paying for the electricity even though they won't know how much, without a watt meter. And even though people seldom put 5 people in a family sedan, they'll know the car only holds 4. Serious EV enthusiasts will buy the Leaf instead and serious environmentalists will buy the Prius instead for its better overall FE. And it will be too expensive for anyone who really needs to save on fuel costs.

How can they be betting the farm on what will be at best a niche product?

Or are they going to use the existence of a car that will sell 5,000 units a year as an excuse to lobby the government for enough money to keep paying their seven-figure bonus packages to top management? That's probably it. Then once they get another big bailout for "going green" they'll scrap the Volt project on the grounds that nobody wants to buy it.

 

Even the Koreans who make the battery pack of Volt is not coming out with series plug-in hybrid.

If it is cost effective, they would be the first to steal the thunder away from Prius. Hyundai Sonata hybrid will use lithium polymer too but it is only an assist hybrid. It will be like IMA with single motor but more powerful. The battery pack will be 1.5 kWh as well. 16kWh pack like in Volt is not progress. More is not aways better.

GM is playing the same more is better brain washing. Before, it was more horse power. Now, they change it to more electricity, disregarding other short comings.

 

Can someone give a good guess at how much the ICE weighs in the volt? I think GM should've cut the weight of the ICE and could've got a much longer range or gone with a less expensive battery and had the same range. the leaf has only 8 more kwh and gets 60 more miles and the i-Miev has the 16kwh pack and gets more ev miles (I know it's smaller). Its obvious that weigh is the largest factor and choosing to go with the 4 cylinder over a much light 3 cylinder or dare I say it... 2 cylinder hurt the volt. the 2 or 3 cylinder would have extended the range by 10-20% or even more. it would've helped the 0-60 times.

I guess GM is trying to go for a sporty car, but so is Nissan with a 0-60 time of the Leaf estimated at about 6-7sec (that's the 0-60 time for nissan's V6 which nissan is saying the Leaf will get).

as a side note, I found an all photovoltaic power ev charging station in brooklyn (the station was built for the mini-e trials) I'm going to contact the owner and see if he will let people pay to charge there that are outside of the mini-e trials.

 

RE: GM "betting the farm"
They're betting that the Volt will be enough of a distraction to allow them to continue producing the same crap they always have. (mission accomplished)

Re: ways to change the EPA "sticker"
One alternative would be to do what they do with refridgerators and air conditioners: provide an estimate of annual costs to operate, based on a specific price for energy and an average usage.

So let's try it, using some sample numbers:
$2.50 for US gallon of gas (not the winter blend)
$0.13 for kwh of electricity
95% efficiency for any charging unit (they're not 100%).
15000 annual miles, which averages 41.1 miles per day.

I'm going to assume there's mixed speeds, and the Volt will get 35 miles on the battery, the Leaf will get 90 (due to use of some highway speed). For the plug-in Prius I'll call it 13.5 miles (even though it would get the max battery miles by switching to gas for highway).

Here's what you get:

 

Good concept. Except there's no way the Volt will get 35 miles on a charge, and I doubt the PHEV Prius will get 13.5. And I don't think the Volt will get 45 mpg in CS mode. But I also don't think you get 95% charger efficiency.

I think gas is more than $2.50 (it is here, anyway). I pay 6 cents per kWh for electricity, but I think it's cheaper here than elsewhere because it's all renewable. (Hydroelectric and wind.) And electricity has the potential for being essentially free after the purchase and installation costs of PV. I think Darell has numbers about that.

Finally, nobody likes to talk about the terrorism tax: A part of every gasoline dollar goes to al Qaeda via the Saudi oil Sheiks. Electricity, even "dirty" coal (which is cleaner than automobiles) is mostly domestic, with only a small part coming from oil-fired plants.

 

Nobody pays 6 cents per kwh for electricity - are you including the delivery charge and monthly fees? I'm guessing not...

And the purpose of the exercise was not to ascribe "hard numbers" to each vehicle, but to show their relative positions. And to show how critical the daily usage is for a range-limited vehicle - the Volt is clearly a loser anytime you go beyond what the battery can handle, but the Leaf looks like a winner due to its better capacity AND efficiency.

 

Oops. I guess it's gone up since the last time I did the math. That might have been a couple of years ago. Sorry.

From my January 27, 2010 bill: Previous meter reading: 5993; Current reading: 6104 = 111 kWh. Charge for electricity: $9.33. So I'm paying 8.4 cents per kWh.

There's also a charge for water on the same bill because I get water and electricity from the same company, but there are no other taxes or fees. Electricity is cheap here in the northwest because it comes from renewable hydroelectric plants.

 

I pay .04 cents per kwh. there is a flat fee for delivery charge of $10 (in MA) so I would pay the delivery charge not matter what. in NYC I pay .10 cents for electricity. same thing in NYC for the delivery charge. I can only run my own numbers and YMMV so everyone needs to run their own numbers.

I ran my own analysis and for me a pure ev beats the volt at every turn (even the tesla model s). This won't be the case for everyone and again YMMV.

 

That's an astonishingly (I would almost say "unbelievably") low price for electricity, and believe me, if (when) the producers have the opportunity to sell it elsewhere, they will (Scott Brown will probably help them with this). And if the state of MA is artifically forcing them to sell this low, I would watch out for California-like power outages when the economy (and demand) recovers...

But I think at almost any price for electricity/gas, the Leaf beats the Volt, hands-down. The Volt is not efficient enough, and doesn't have enough range. A lose-lose scenario, unless you're looking at things other than efficiency (like bulk or amenities).

And obviously, as long as electricity prices are disproportionately low, ev's will beat any ICE vehicle - assuming the distance and speeds are low enough. That equation will obviously change as electricity is leveraged to replace oil-based technologies, but the fundamental premise (low-speed, low-distance = EV) will stay the same.

The other question is where EV's fit relative to the plug-in Prius, and it's clear that the plug-in Prius compares favorably to the Volt, and in some respects is likely to be better - the obvious areas being higher speeds and longer distances, where the ICE has the advantage. And the battery can be saved for lower-speed portions of the trip where the ICE is less efficient.

 

The town i live in owns the power company and actually produces a good amount of electricity in the town. So I guess it's artifially low. I have never experienced a brown out or rolling black outs, but I think the town makes up for in the price of natural gas which is MUCH higher than in NYC.