Car & Driver long term test of 09 VW Jetta TDI from March 2010 issue

Well... there goes that idea. I was entertaining thoughts of getting a TDI for better handling reasons. I have a Touring and I am not thrilled with the handling. I'm sure a tire upgrade would make a big difference, but at a FE cost.

 

Before deciding on the Sonata, I also checked out the Jetta TDI, mainly for the fuel efficiency and I think German cars always bring something out of the ordinary, in other words, they are not so "toyotasized". Please don't get me wrong.

I found the TDI a good car with good handling and I liked their interior and exterior design too. The design is simple but seems solid and better than the Prius IMO, but not nearly as refined as the new Sonata. With the disclaimer that test drives are often too short for a real good feeling of a car, I found torque and peppiness factor a lot better in the Sonata than the TDI. The engine in the Sonata is not turbocharged but is bigger with more HP, so that may explain it. I turned down the TDI for similar reasons I passed the Prius; price with the features I wanted was a lot more compared to the Sonata.

In addition, reliability is still an issue with VW, they are supposed to be in the “getting better” mode, but Hyundai was in that stage 10 years ago. There are rumors that Hyundai will lead CR recommendations for reliability and safety in the 2010 issue, coming up on April I think.

 

Maybe you can fill in the gap in the price and features you wanted.

I hope this does not come out too harsh. The way I see it.... You gave up on the hybrid premium features that comes with the Prius and instead pay more for gas for Sonata.

Your decision is correct for TDI because it does not come with extra premium features, just premium maintenance cost.

 

Actually, the features I wanted were available only on Prius V. As a consequence I would have to pay 8K more for the Prius than the Sonata. It would take more than 30 years of gas savings to compensate that extra cost of the Prius on gas average of $3. Maybe even more than that, it appears, from what I have been reading here, the Prius MPG drops considerably in the winter.

Anyway, while I could not get any discount on the Prius, I got something on the Sonata despite of being a new release! I think the fact I was considering the Prius helped on the discounts.

Besides, the 2011 Sonata limited has more features than Prius V, it has a much better interior, a gorgeous exterior design, and it is more comfortable too. No wonder car reviews are comparing it to Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, etc, because it does feel like a luxury car. Have you checked it out? It’s cool.

There is also the Hyundai Assurance program for a extra piece of mind, better warranty, and on top of everything, insurance is considerably cheaper in the Sonata too (I did quote both).

Please don't take me wrong but it was a no-brainer for me, but that’s just me.

 

Intellichoice predicts the Jetta TDI is better than average for ownership costs and has cheaper 5-year maintenance costs than a Sonata.

Premium features are very subjective. The Jetta wagon TDI can have a panoramic moonroof. The Golf has a sport tuned suspension. The Golf and Jetta are both IIHS top safety picks. Some may find those features more premium than others. Others may not.

 

I have not check out 2011 yet. I have driven the older gen and it drives very well. Really solid.

Sonata Limited Ed starts at $25k. Prius V starts at $28k. I only see $3k differences. Prius has unique features (Touch Tracer, Smart Key, etc...) not in Sonata as well.

Whatever works for you... Did you wanted heated seats in Prius V?

 

With or without turbocharging, most diesels have more low end torque. Part of it has to do with the combustion process and power stroke of the engines. With a gasoline engine, a fuel-air mixture is compressed, then ignited with a spark. This produces a fast hot burn which expands the gases in the cylinder and drives the piston. With a diesel engine, air is compressed until it is very hot, after which fuel is sprayed or injected into the cylinder. The fuel spontaneously burns as it hits the hot air. The burn continues for the entire duration of the injection.

The higher compression necessary to heat the air in a diesel naturally calls for heavier engine components. Heavier components tend to limit high RPMs, so most diesel engines were designed to run at lower RPMs. It is because of this that most diesels have good torque at lower speeds. Also, because of the combustion process, most diesel engines have a narrow torque band.

Modern engine controls and modern fuel injection have blurred the traditional distinction between gasoline and diesel engines. Many of the new diesel engines behave a lot more like gasoline engines, but the old timers like the one in our sailboat still like to thud away at low speed. The flywheel on our engine weighs about as much as the gas ICE on the Prius.

Tom

 

The problem was that I did not want navigation but absolutely needed moonroof, so that forced me to get the Prius IV, not V. Sorry, I keep saying V in my posts by mistake; it’s stuck in my mind. I also absolutely needed 17 wheels (I find the 15" wheels in the Prius very ugly quite frankly) and fog lights. So, in that case my dealer said they could add those or I could get them after-market. Either way, considering the discount I got in the Sonata limited and the final cost of the Prius, the difference was indeed close to 8K, I think it was 7895 to be more precise. Of course, that would include the navigation as a bonus in the Prius but I did not want it, so I would be paying for something I did not want.

The way the options were split in the Prius was very odd...

 

The non-turbo automotive diesels seem to be tuned for efficiency and often get beat even in low end torque. For example, the VW 1.9 and 2.0 SDI engines only make about 100 lb-ft at 2000 rpm. The 2.0 gasser makes ~120 lb-ft at 2500 rpm. Even if the gas engine only makes 80% of that peak at 2000 rpm, it's still comparable to the diesels.

 

FWIW the CR estimated 8 year cost of ownership for a 2010 Sonata Lim is $50,250, compared to $37,750 for a 2010 Prius IV. If a 28mpg difference is less important to you than a sunroof and/or 17" wheels, that's your choice, but it seems likely you're going to end up spending a lot more money (which is of course also your choice).

 

First of all, no offense but despite of cost, I found the new Sonata much superior to the Prius on almost everything I prioritize, which is comfort, interior quality, handling, convenience, style. That's my opinion and that has to be considered in the equation.

Now, do you really trust on cost of ownership estimates by CR? I have had a 98 Elantra which I sold with 130K miles and the cost of ownership on it was not even half of what Edmunds or CR estimated. I keep a log for all my car expenses and know very well that those estimates are flawed. I’m surprised to see people still trust on them.

But since you like CR, wait to see what the CR recommendations will be for the new Prius after the new edition on April. Rumors are that Toyota won’t do much good and a big surprise will be revealed; most people are speculating that the big surprise will be record recommendations for Hyundais and I would not be surprised. They have been on top of quality and safety lately.

Last but not least, my commune is not that long but it is mostly hwy. That means, according to EPA, 48 (Prius EPA MPG)-35 (new Sonata EPA MPG): 13, not 28! That's assuming both cars will keep up with EPA but, from what I gathered in this chat, the Prius has really a hard time to beat EPA in the winter.

 

Sorry to drag this off topic a little longer...

The cost difference in 26MPG vs. 50 MPG over 150k miles at $3 per gallon comes out $8,307. You mentioned it would take 30 years to break even. My calculation shows it should be about 9.5 years.

Either way, as long as you are happy with the deal you got... and you don't plan on upgrading to plug-in in the future.

[Edit]: I just saw your last post. You were comparing highway MPG.

 

No problem!

Actually, I consider 48 vs. 35 because I drive mostly hwy and those are the EPA numbers for hwy in both cars. My commute is relatively short, but mostly hwy. I also considered the extra premium for insurance, which I was quoted considerably higher (more than $100) per 6-month premium in the Prius for whatever reason.

Whatever the number of years is, it is very unlikely I will keep a car that long, and yes, I’m happy with my choice. The only reason I considered the Prius was because I think it was the only thing out of the ordinary Toyota has produced in the past several years. Prius are cool cars regardless of my choice. I’m not an anti-Prius type of person! It just didn’t fit to my taste and needs.

 

You are right. The 2011 Sonata is gorgeous!! The Hyundais are evolving to the point where they will exceed most of the Japanese manufacturers with respect to looks and reliability. My dad has a 2008 Sonata and he loves it. I recently had the pleasure of having the 2010 Santa Fe for a week while some minor body work was done on my 04 Prius. The only thing I disliked was the gas mileage. Overall it was an abysmal 18.6 MPG for mixed city and highway driving. It was the 4 cylinder which was extremely powerful since we're talking about a vehicle that has to be over 3500 lbs (guessing). Anyway... if I was in the market for a car, I'd definitely consider the 2011 Sonata. Good luck!!

 

Not only that, but trying to maximize torque at low RPM in a diesel usually ends up with higher emissions, so I suspect that with modern, "clean" diesels they have to make some sacrifices (which is also why "clean" diesels aren't as fuel efficient as older ones).

 

Hello there. Just thought I would clear up a few items noted above and taken from the recent C/D test of the 2009 Jetta. Not here to cause problems or such. Yes, I've driven the 2010 Prius and overall I rather liked it but I purchased the TDI Jetta for many reasons.

Anyhow.
Comment: They had trouble with the DSG transmission behavior.
Answer: C/D really had no clue what they were driving. The DSG has been praised around the world for it's smoothest and drive-ability. What C/D apparently didn't know is the DSG is a 'dual clutch' transmission. It has no torque converter. What this means is when your foot is on the brake the clutch is dis-engaged. When you release the brake you need to wait perhaps 4 milliseconds before hitting the pedal. If you do that you will have no lag in response. It's the nature of the beast. Goes the same for the BMW, Lambo and other cars with 'dual clutch' trannys. Amazing the C/D guys were so off the mark.

Comment: They almost froze to death because the car is so efficient it's slow to warm the coolant.
Answer: They apparently didn't know that if you turn the temp control to max a small electric heater comes on and you have heat in less than a minute. Again, the boys at C/D didn't do their homework.

Comment: They had an error code show up on the DPF.
Answer: So, things happen. The Prius is having it's problems as well. That's why you have a warranty.

So how do I know all this? I purchased a 2010 US VW Jetta TDI last September after driving both. I loved the Jetty's fun to drive factor and the torque from the diesel. Never at a loss of power and, I'm sorry, it will blow the doors off your Prius. It's puts a smile on my face everyday I drive it because 99 percent of the people out there have no clue I'm driving a diesel.

If it's all about MPG your Prius wins hands down. But I've broken 50 plus several times on the highway while cruising 65 with the speed control. And I'm not talking about a couple of miles but as much as 200 miles on one occasion. My average combined city/highway mileage for the past 11 tanks is 37.2. Not bad but not as good as the Prius but I'm OK with that.

I like the room. The Jetta is much roomier inside and out and easier to see out of. The trunk is large and holds a lot of stuff and I can still carry four people at the same time.

I won't even begin to touch on the carbon footprint the battery in the Prius causes............that's a whole subject on it's own.

Reading the VW forums such as this one I learned about the heater (it's in the Manuel also).

In the end both are nice cars and there is no doubt the Prius has a hugh fan base out here in California. It's just not the car for me.

If you check google you'll be hard pressed to find any review comparing the Prius with the TDI Jetta where the Jetta was not the favorite. Edmunds, Automobile, M/T and CAR to name just a few. And it always come down to the 'fun to drive' ratio. Just no comparison.

 

Just a comment - does the TDI Jetta really have more trunk /cargo room (with back seats up / back seats flipped down) than the Prius? If that was true then I might have actually taken a look at it (reliability, other issues aside).

 

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