What really bothers me about the recall

Re: In the thick of it

:faint:

 

As an engineer, I'm going to have to side with Toyota on this. Just because the customer complains about something doesn't mean it needs to be fixed.

I deal with this all the time at work. The customer comes saying that we have a problem. If they cause a big enough stink, we scramble to figure out what happened. Half the time, we find that the customer was an idiot and did something stupid. Most of the time, we find that the customer's "problem" wasn't really a problem or wasn't as big a deal as they made it out to be. If we do find a real problem, we announce it, then the complaints come pouring in from people that turn out to have unrelated issues (or no real issue at all).

Supposedly, there were four accidents caused by this braking issue. Was this proven? I haven't heard about any proof. (I'm not being obstinate, I really haven't, so correct me if I'm wrong.) As I mentioned, after everyone hears what's going on, people come out of the woodwork saying "that must be what happened to me". There were four accidents. Remember that every year, we hear about some old guy plowing down people in a farmer's market. Maybe his brakes failed too.

 

and the drama...

..and speaking from the front lines... here's what I have heard/seen the past couple weeks. Just a few highlights that make me wanna take a good long vacation!

1. Customer calls me, says something's wrong with her car, it's the brakes. When she wants to take it out of the garage, the car refuses to go into gear even though she is stepping on the brake first. Says it doesn't do it all the time. I make a house call. When I watch her do this real time, she is STEPPING ON THE EMERGENCY BRAKE PEDAL thinking it's the brake. I kid you not. This is the 2nd call I have had from a Prius client in a month who's doing the same thing... confusing the brake pedal with the emergency brake.

2. Customer calls me "I am worried about driving my new Highlander because it might crash..." and after a quick review, it's a Japan built car with fewer than 500 miles on it. NO recall, no worries. I explain it's got a long way to go to the 90K to over 100K mile mark in which Toyota replicated any problem at all in testing. She agrees that all the hype had her concerned.

3. Customer calls me that her car is stuck and the brake light is on. It won't move, she thinks she "broke it" .. another house call (this one to San Pedro) and I find the car in the garage with the emergency brake pressed to the floor, hence the BRAKE light being on. Although we showed her twice how to press start, start the car with foot on brake, she forgets...

4. Long time Customer with wife and wife's parents - they have Tundra, Highlander, Camry XLE and Prius calls me. Wants to know how the recall will affect them. I look all 4 cars up and determine that 3 of the 4 cars are affected with the recall(s) and offer to come get the cars and get them dealt with here, and then bring them back. I move heaven and earth to get 3 porters + me to pick up 3 cars on a Saturday, get them done, and get them back. One of the cars is his mom's... and Monday morning I get a scathing email from the mother in law that I did not fill each of their cars with gas before I brought them back. (!?!?!!?!?!?!?) ... mind you they live 4.7 miles away...

5. Long time Tacoma client, on truck #5 now I think - meaning since 1996 I think I have sold him 5 trucks... anyway, he emails all freaked out that the new Tacoma won't start, it must be part of some secret recall.. he was on the brake, can't turn the key in the ignition... well, you know how the steering column locks. He wasn't wiggling it!!

It's crazy!!!!!!

Concern is normal. If you heard all this and were not concerned a little, you'd be Pollyanna or nuts. But, some of this crazy and downright bad behavior's thru the roof.

Welcome to my world lately.

 

I think I'm most agitated about the fact that Toyota has to fix the feel of the brakes on the 2010 Prius as a safety recall, and Ford doesn't have to call it a safety recall when they are re-programming the Mexican-built Ford Fusion Hybrid. Same issue. But Ford gets to say it's just a part of a "customer satisfaction program."

 

I am so used to it, it's really no biggie. If I need to stop, I press the brake harder. That's all.

 

We have all become a bunch of crybabies...OVER nothing! Jesus christ people. Get a grip. Hiding WHAT "problem"? Sell yer damn Toyota and let the rest of us enjoy the best cars made. period. sheesh...

 

I don't think anyone on this thread (I'm know they have on other threads) suggested that toyota should not have investigated and checked their software before getting it to customers.

What I do object to is the blaiming the drivers? Shouldn't good customer service start with listening to the customer? Especially with a $2B recall effort going on that includes investigations of deaths spanning multiple year. I would think dealerships and toyota should not be tone deaf. It is especially telling that the European office was announcing that there were no reports of incidents while drivers were reporting that they were telling dealers. Oh stupid european drivers reporting to dealers and not to the safety agencies. I think a simple "we are looking into to it" to the customers, and serious reports back to hq, would be a minimal step.

I have no idea whether there is a safety issue with the generation II prii or not. I have not driven one a sufficient distance to have an opinion one way or the other. I do understand the software and electronics of the Gen 3 enough to know that lack of a problem with generation 2 does not at all mean lack of a problem with generation 3. Toyota has directly stated this. A problem with gen 3 equally would not logically mean there is one in gen 2. But there has been so much shouting from gen2 owners that it isn't a problem, that I would think someone would investigate that.

I really don't care if anyone one believes that accidents happened, or that a loss of braking force for up to a second on transition to abs could cause accidents. The question really becomes if you are loud enough to say the poster with a fender bender in this thread is blaming his bad driving on the perfectly good brakes, what are you basing this on. I would definitely say that it is factually correct to call a disconnected light switch, one with bad light switch feel. If you hooked it up, you could rightly say you had improved the feel to what light switch customers are used to. Toyota itself says that they have "shortend abs delay, and shorted abs stopping distance". It is really intellectually dishonest to then say the fix is just brake feel.

This is definitely not saying diane said anything wrong. But you can understand why some of us that reported the problem to the nthsa, and said that this is not the way antilock brakes should work, don't really like the line that we are just blaming the brakes for our bad driving, or aren't advanced enough to understand how hybrid brakes should feel.

 

How is it so many of us Toyota drivers are doing fine? Hmmm...

how is it the great majority of the Toyota world have ZERO problems? it's a wonder people don't have problems putting their pants on every day without a media frenzy over nothing. give me a $%^ing "brake". i really have to just stop reading all the stupid remarks and get on with driving the best car with the best technology.

 

Back to the original thread, the credibility of Toyota. Are there safety issues that Toyota knew and covered them up?

The promoters here tend to deviate the direction to how do you like your prius or is your prius working fine or is this the right timing to buy the prius.... and somewhat intentionally downplay the safety thing. If these manipulations originally came from Toyota or Toyota related business groups/people, it would make the image even worse.

If it is safe, Toyota should confirm it to the owners and take the full liability of it. If it is not safe, why not just have it fixed from the very beginning instead of defending it???? Make it simple...

 

I didn't explicitly say it, but what I was getting at was that Toyota might not have thought it was a problem. Did the brakes get "fixed" because it IS a safety issue or because the customer SAYS it's a safety issue? Remember that, ultimately, the customer always gets what they want. (And PR will tell them to say what the customer wants them to say)

Let's say I make a blender with blades that might nick people when they clean it. I hear about this and improve the design. This gets on the news and there are now unsubstantiated reports of people bleeding to death. Did you expect me to announce the change to everyone and recall the old blenders? Or should I have expected you to know better?

 

The problem is Toyota didn't believe them to be a safety issue so there was nothing to cover up. Likewise, many here (including myself) don't think the temporary (albeit prolonged compared to Gen II) transition between regenerative and friction braking poses much of a safety issue either and could have been corrected eventually with a simple TSB.

 

I understand both points of view and I don't personally have a strong feeling about this, but I do want to remind folks that it's not just the Prius that is affected by recalls. The gas pedal issue affecting Camrys is real (and has caused accidents) and there are other models with issues, so keep all that in mind because the company is facing challenges coming as a result of a significant % of it's vehicles affected by one or more issues.

 

The question is when does the manufacturer know there is a problem that is a safety issue. Is that one customer complaint? Or when they have complaints from 1/1000 of 1% of their customers? Or when an auto insurer tries to shift their costs to the manufacturer? Is it when they can re-create the problem so they can fix it? How do they determine the extent to which this is a design problem, or a maintenance issue?

I guess I didn't realize this thread was just for people who have judged Toyota guilty of a cover-up already. I will wait to see what is proven in a court of law, not what is processed by the media.

I just wonder why no one in the media is asking when Ford knew about the exact same braking issue? They already had a solution programmed. They weren't required to call it a safety recall like Toyota was? Why not?

 

Ford hasn't developed a pattern of hiding from problems over the last few years, hiring some of the investigators, and then as pressure mounts creating recalls such as the floor mat recall to take some pressure off.
It will not be hard to prove a pattern in the this toyota mess. Why do you really think Mr Toyoda is not coming for the hearings? A bloodbath is coming.

 

Oh really? Only 7 years of hiding for this one.

From article:

"Blowing Away Customers

On the other hand, American automakers are steadily losing market share to Asian brands, at least partly because U.S.-made vehicles are no longer regarded as being as sturdy and reliable as their Japanese competitors.

Similarly, American automakers are steadily acquiring a reputation for stonewalling consumers who run into expensive problems with their U.S.-made cars and trucks. Ford, in particular, has steadfastly refused to fix a lengthy string of calamitous problems, including:

• The 3.8L V-6 Engine Used in the Windstar and other models, this all-aluminum engine tended to blow its head gasket every 60,000 miles or so. Ford finally issued an extended warranty to some owners but squeaked out of a class action suit that would most likely have resulted in a more stringent settlement.

• Flaming Fords For years, Ford ignored the tendency of the F-150 and similar models to spontaneously burst into flames while parked with the engine off. Finally, in 2005, it issued a recall, although parts shortages have slowed its completion.

• Crown Victoria Fires Police departments nationwide complained, filed suit and looked for alternatives to the popular but explosive Crown Vic. Ford insists that putting the gas tank behind the axle isn't dangerous but try telling that to those who've been killed or seriously burned when their cars exploded after being rear-ended.

Can Ford really afford to ignore problems and mistreat its faithful customers in this manner? Slick advertising campaigns and promises of green machines to come may not be enough to overcome the wrath and unending fury of consumers who have been hung out to dry by products they consider defective and a corporate response that amounts to a curt dismissal."

I guess you could say American automakers (i.e. our government with a major stake in GM who is grilling Toyota) are getting back at Toyota in lost sales through the recall smear campaign.

 

Corporations and wars are the same...they both see human lives as acceptable losses.

 

I was actually seen the recent Toyota news as a good opportunity to buy a Prius but I could not negotiate a good price, to my surprise, no discounts or incentives, so I went with Hyundai and I'm glad I did. The car I picked was 8K less with more features and comfort.

Anyhow, with the bad news escalating; now the problem is the steering wheel on Corollas, I must admit that I’m starting to think that this is more than just media exaggeration over something relatively minor; it may actually suggest that Toyota quality has been declining as some critics are claiming.

 

100 complaints out of 1.3 million Corollas sold is a sign of Toyota quality declining rather than media exaggeration and our government's curbing their competition?

 

I had no idea what a "pothole" was. Based on my driving, it was this little hole about a foot wide and several inches long. Now we know, those aren't what people were slamming into. Turns out some are the size of craters, large enough to swallow small cars... which explains why I hadn't ever encountered the situation.
.

 

Oh, so you bought a Hyundai hybrid that gets around 50mpg?
You are comparing the price of a Hyundai to a comparable Prius?