Volt Job 1 scheduled for November 1!

Did it have all the EV components, or was it just a shell? If it was real, will they give real-world actual test numbers, or keep all that secret?

I'll still believe it when you can actually buy one, but in any case, I'd definitely go with the Nissan. It's a real EV, and I trust Nissan far more than GM to make a reliable car.

 

OK, here we go again.....

It was a test mule rolling around Ann Arbor, Michigan and ended up parked outside an apartment. I did not talk to anybody. There are no real-world whatever it is you want. It was sitting there, I said "hey there's a Volt!" Maybe you can go hound down the guy that was driving the thing around town and go harass him about real-world numbers and how bad GM is. And do this at 11pm when I saw the car.

I also forgot to mention - the fancy plug on the one they show at car shows and to the media is gone. It's got a basic looking gas cap where the charging plug is.

 

I think there is tremendous overlap on some points:

1) Price, with the nissan Leaf estimated at 30k (without the rebate) with a longer EV range.

2)Value: Proving the value of the volt is going to be a heavy up hill battle. The leaf has already (or any EV) it's value in lower operating and cheap fuel (electricity). Then you have the PHEV Prius that driven over an extended distance will get better mileage than the Volt in CS mode(and a lot cheaper).

3)size: it's a well known fact that "Americans" are obsessed with size. it has to haul as many people and as much as possible (the SUV craze happened for a reason). The Volt is the ONLY alternative fuel/BEV/PHEV that seats only four (forget the karma). The general public will see that as a major draw back even though most people rarely ever have their car filled to capacity.

So the volt seems to be the jack of all trades that is the king of none. Nissan has already approached multiple municipalities to introduce fast charging stations that are to be rolled out with the leaf soft launch. I like the Volt but it seems harder to justify spending 10k+. If you take a look at it from a layman's perspective. I can save 10k and go with a PHEV Prius that gets better gas mileage over long distances or choose the Leaf with a 100 mile EV range


as a side note, I think the animosity towards the Volt and GM are a result of decades of public blunders. It may take years for that "bad taste" to fade from public opinion. Some of the posters on this forum are former EV1 leasers and we all know how well that went down.

 

So the good news (at least in my book) is that I should get a chance to actually drive the full-feature preproduction unit here one day... soonish. The're actually going after the X-EV1 drivers to give them a chance at it, and to actually listen to them. I hope it happens. If it does, I'll certainly report.

 

Blunders? I think every one of those "blunders" was a well-thought-out move to increase profits by screwing America.

 

Daniel, would you make me a list of these well-thought out moves to screw America?

 

There's only two I can detail, but for me, those are enough to show GM's attitude toward the American people. Both have been discussed at length here on P.C.

1. GM bought out and dismantled public transportation in America. When I was little in Los Angeles, we had an excellent trolly car system. It was all electric. GM bought it, dismantled it, and replaced it with diesel busses. But the catch was that the busses ran about once an hour, making it pure hell to try to get anywhere. Anybody who could afford it had to buy a car, and of course GM was one of the major sellers of cars. People who could not afford it, poor people, were just plain screwed. But it was a very profitable move for GM. It not only brought in revenue in car sales, but it effectively eliminated electricity as a transportation fuel, in favor of petroleum, resulting in more profit for GM.

2. When California tried to cut pollution with the zero-emissions mandate, GM initiated a lawsuit which eventually blocked the mandate. And then, just so that the public would not have evidence on the streets that electric cars are viable, GM took back the EV-1 cars, all of them perfectly serviceable, having been careful in the first place to lease rather than sell them, and crushed them all. The leasees were willing to pay for them. But GM spent money instead to crush them, all to remove the evidence that zero-emissions is possible.

GM has fought emissions control, safety, and fuel efficiency every step of the way. GM is Mordor. GM is Valdemort. GM makes bin Laden look like Mother Theresa.

 

Daniel, with no disrespect intended, how long ago did GM buy the trolley system?
On the second item was not Toyota also involved in the said lawsuit?

 

This is why I hesitate to answer quesitions posed as bait. Daniel offers a PERFECT example of what you asked, and your only response is to question it from a statute of limitations standpoint? Does it matter how long ago it was? Fact is, once it was done all those years ago it was permanent, and didn't need to be repeated. Was it not a big enough deal? Was it not on purpose? Were they not found guilty? Were the consequences not as Daniel said?

Yes they were. As were many others. And once again you take a perfectly good answer and try to put it into question with an irrelevant detail. GM initiated the lawsuit. They did this WHILE they said they were making a go of the EV1 program. Yes, Toyota and others were all too glad to join in. GM initiated it. And proudly fought the state to get it squashed. Let's pretend that Toyota was just as big a deal in the lawsuit... so what? You'd asked about GM, and Daniel answered you. That Toyota was part of the suit does NOT mean that GM wasn't.

Come on, man. You can do better than this. If you're trying to make GM look like roses and rainbows, you're failing.

If anybody wonders why I don't answer questions from people who appear to already have their answers figured out, this is an excellent example why.

 

I understand your point. My intention is not to make GM look like roses, just to point out that some of you need to get over it. A couple of you keep bringing up the trolley system that happened what 50, 60 or 70 years ago, but don't even acknowledge the fact that at roughly the same time in history, toyota was buiding war equipment which killed some of your family members.

I acknowledge the huge mistake GM made with the EV1. i am not proud of the fact, but again you hammer GM on this but if memory serves toyota also crushed some early electric vehicles. I also understand the GM was demonized because of it size, something which toyota is enjoying today as we chat.

GM has made many mistakes of varying degree over the years, so has Ford, so has toyota.

 

In addition to what Darell said, Toyota sold the RAV4EV to customers, who thereby were able to continue driving them to the present. GM clearly intended to take back the EV-1 as soon as it could. GM led the way in fighting the zero-emissions mandate and then spent billions to brainwash housewives into buying gas-guzzlers. Toyota spent billions to develop clean and efficient cars so that consumers would have a choice.

Toyota is a profit-making corporation. GM is an evil profit-making corporation.

BTW, I don't hold any of this against you, Malorn. As a businessman you have to promote your wares. I see you the same way I see the airmen when I was protesting nukes in North Dakota: Good people; Bad product. I appreciate your civil mode of discourse, even though your logic is faulty.

 

My guess would be the real reason that GM would not sell the EV-1 to customers would be that the GM legal department was involved. For years GM was run by lawyers afraid of seemingly everything and bean-counters always trying to skimp where there should be no skimping.
So far the new GM has had a much different attiude on these matters.
As for me I try to be as civil as possible and love the challenges that all of you on PC present me. Way too much of my time is spent with people who don't readily disagree with me(other than my wife!).

 

Boy did I open a can of worms . Well at this point GM is at a turning point. If the Volt comes out well it will drastically change attitudes towards GM or if the Volt is done horribly it will only deepen the "dislike" of GM.

GM has Volt test cars out and hopefully letting the cars go into CS mode to get some MPG numbers. The Drivers are probably bound by a NDA not to say anything or give strangers rides. many people have the stance of when they drive it they will believe it..... so GM has a chance with them.

 

Most of us are civil, too, and respect you to at least some extent, but we're still not buying a GM anytime soon. And yes, that trolley thing is still an issue. Our cities were forever changed for the worse. That EV1 thing is still an issue, too. And please, ask your people to shut up about the hydrogen thing. We're not buying that, either.

 

at that price the volt will get into a line of factory build ( the volt being a series/mass? build not like the others but next to that its the same ) ev's that are on the road already here in the EU for more then 10 years.

so it will not change anything.

i am hoping the price will come down or this volt will only make other car brands to put there own cheaper ev's on the market.
and then the GM volt will be part of history . fast.

and thats a shame...

 

And yet they'll sell any of their other cars. Nope. I'm not buying that the lease-only of the EV1 was a legal issue. They made it clear they didn't want to build it. Their "This-Is-A-Lousy-Car" advertising campaign made it clear they didn't want anybody to drive it. And then as soon as they could they forced people to give them back and they crushed them.

Clearly, they just didn't want people to see electric cars on the road.

I actually disagree with this assessment. As much as I would like to see the Volt on the road, and as much as I will rant against them when they scrap it, most Americans couldn't care less one way or the other about the Volt. Most Americans either love GM because it makes big trucks and fast cars and it's an American company (even as it closes U.S. plants and ships manufacturing to the nations with the cheapest labor and most anti-union politics) or they hate GM because of the bailout. They don't know anything about the Volt and they don't care anything about the Volt. Hell, most Americans think you can just take hydrogen from water and power cars for free once the fuel cell is perfected. And if you talk about energy levels, and why the H in water is not available without an input of energy, their eyes glass over, and they're likely to say something like "Well, scientists don't know everything" as if that was an argument.

No. Americans won't react one way or the other about the Volt. And if GM markets it by saying "You have to plug it in, but it's still a pretty good car if you like that sort of thing" and they show a pencil-necked geek sitting on the fender, nobody's going to buy one, either.

 

So please explain to me why the Prius is selling so well and everytime someone mentions a hybrid a Prius is always mentioned? Maybe its the sheer fact that the Prius has the highest MPG of any mass produced car or that the Prius is very reliable. But the MPG savings over a comparable non hybrid model may recoup the extra investment. Why Toyota is seen as a "green" company when the rest of the line up (non hybrid)flounders in MPG?

One model can effect public perception alot and to say otherwise really shows ignorance and bias.:der:

Not to mention the constant press releases and media coverage of the volt (which could be a bad thing). If (and that is a big IF) GM makes good on their promises (that 230mpg campaign is going to haunt them later) I can see public opinion swing to the positive. Just like public perception is swinging toward the negative for one particular company right now.

I am far from a GM apologist or fan. At this time GM is at a cross roads, it can start down the road to perception redemption.

 

The thing about Toyota and the Prius is that Toyota offers the option of a clean, efficient car. Yes, they build and sell gas-guzzlers, too. But for decades they've offered fuel-efficient cars for consumers to choose if they want to, and they spent big bucks to design and produce the Prius, which is even more clean and efficient.

GM is all about gas guzzlers. Now they make misleading, and therefore dishonest claims about a car that they have not even built yet. 230 mpg??? Okay, assume the Volt ends up with a 15-mile EV range and gets 15 mpg in charge-sustaining mode. Then suppose you drive it 16 miles between charges. You will get 230 mpg if you pretend that the electricity does not count.

But if you drive the Volt 30 miles you'll only get 30 mpg, still pretending that the electricity you used for half of those 30 miles does not count. And you'd be better off with a Prius! But you'd have paid $10,000 more for the Volt than for a fully-loaded Prius.

I'd pay $40,000 for a Leaf, if it comes out before my Porsche is back on the road, because it's pure electric. But it looks to me as though my Xebra and my (not fully loaded) Prius together serve me better and cost less together than a Volt, and the Volt does not exist yet, whereas I've been driving my Prius for six years and my Xebra for coming along towards three years now.

Pajaro en mano vale cien volando. (A bird in the hand is worth a hundred on the wing.) Prius and Xebra are in my hand now. That makes them worth a lot more than a plug-in gas hybrid that you cannot buy, that they have not built, and for which, for all I know, they have not even designed the batteries yet.

 

I am not referencing just their gas guzzlers, I'm talking about the camry, the Rav4, corolla, yaris etc... Name one toyota car that is class leading in MPG (that's isn't a Prius)? there isn't one.

Where are you getting your figures? The volt in CS mode yes will probably less efficient than the Prius but looks like it will get in 40s for MPG. and that supposed 15 mile range (which is supposed to be 40 miles) is a lot more than can be said for the 12 mile range of a PHEV Prius that isn't even built yet and lets assume it has a range of 4 miles in EV.:der: the Leaf doesn't exist either so how can you knock the volt for both being in the same state? Sounds to me like bias and sour grapes.

 

Does GM still exist ? It doesn't really matter to me, since there is zero chance of my ever buying a GM product, now or in the future.