Brake fix didn't work!!!!

This brake business is beginning to look as ridiculous as American politics.

Last night I dreamt my Prius went over a pothole and burped. Is it supposed to do that?

 

i sincerely hope you honestly do not think that was the issue being fixed. there is no such delay now or before and your statement is exactly the problem that Toyota has to contend with.

it is completely false and misleading and you Sir are simply a victim of media hysteria.

once again, there is no brake failure or failure of the system. the "fix" does not fix anything. its simply an adjustment. the fix only makes the brake pedal more responsive since it has been established that in these anomalies, more braking force applied would have been effective in stopping the vehicle.

by making the pedal more responsive, it simply allows more braking force without having to push harder on the pedal. iow, it allows you to push the pedal a few inches and get the same braking response as pushing the brake pedal say 6 inches...

now there is a timing adjustment as well which essentially goes back to increasing pedal response. one affects the other.

 

Exactly, the real problem is the disconnection between brake sensitivity and driver's expectation, and this is what freaks out the driver when braking over potholes.

 

Please look at bob wilson's accellerameter readings. The problem does not happen often, say in 1 out of 100 cars. I am contending that this is exactly what was fixed.

It is also not likely that I am a victum of the media. I felt the brakes do this myself. I am a professor of electrical engineering, and I teach a seminar on automated vehicals. I also consult on lean manufacturing. It is doubtful that I have been duped by the media and that I or others reporting are feeling things that were not there.

As reported it is not a brake failure. It is a software defect. The brakes don't stop working, they work less and change how they react to the pedal (much more input is needed).

If it happens in 1 out of 100 cars, and it may take thousands of miles, I find it hard to believe that thinking individuals claim media hype if they can't feel it. I would expect that you are telling the truth. Why do you think that I am lying or a dupe of the media.

Toyota has fixed this and that is a good thing. I am however slightly dismayed on the reactions of those that thought it didn't exist, to continue harping that it doesn't, even when the evidence is in.

Do you think the Prius team statement that the software will reduce abs braking distance is a placebo to counteract media hype?

 

What don't you understand about that post? Ask, and maybe we can help.

Tom

 

What do you mean 1 out of 100 cars? I thought it affects all but you have to reproduce the problem on purpose in order to see it, as not all drivers have access to potholes, etc.

Exactly what Dave and the rest of us are saying.

 

I don't think it is a case of the "problem" doesn't exist so much as the "problem" is much overstated and the severity of it is hyped. Keep in mind that one of the first posts in here of a person complaining about the "problem" (when the hype started) stated that the loss of braking caused them to travel and extra 20 feet and into the middle of an intersection. Then you have all the brand new members coming in the whine and complain about it and many have no history with the forum and thus we cannot verify the accuracy of their claims. There is a large number of people in this world who have nothing better to do then discredit the Prius and Toyota so of course some Prius owners are on the defensive. It happens when you are constantly bombarded with anti-Prius hyperbole by politically-driven idiots.

 

ok, so you were not mislead. we simply need to clarify terminology. software in itself is not perfect. a defect causes a completely unwanted result. an adjustment to software; optimization if you will, makes the software perform more intuitively or in a manner that better suits the user. what we have here is the latter. definitely not defective software.

its actually more like 1 in 30,000

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up to now, you had compelling arguments. now i am questioning your stated qualifications.

well, gee...lets see. if previously i had to push on brake pedal 6 inches before the fix, but now only have to push 2 inches to get the same effect... what would happen??

well, seems that pushing 2 inches will be much quicker than pushing 6 inches which means "timing" if you wish, will be reduced. when in actuality, it simply takes less time to move a shorter distance thus reducing stopping distance, but not by increasing braking performance. it is all caused by reducing the amount of work the driver has to do to stop.

all i can say is;

have we really gotten so fat and lazy that we cant push that 6 inches without help???!!


ok, ignore that last statement...got carried away

 

I do not believe I used any hyperbole with dave. Do you think so?

In fact the wording was up to 1 second when the problem occurs.

I said half a second, which is around what I thought I felt. Bob measured 0.7-0.8 seconds. I in fact only used personal experience and did not point out the other measurement.

I don't really have a problem with people that say there are exaggerations. I see those on both sides. We should listen to each other respectfully though and understand even without the media some of us would feel that any brake problem is a safety concern. This is especially the case when it feels like it may be a lock out condition, so the timing of the glitch is really unknown.

There is a difference between saying this is over-hyped, versus its just brake feel and Toyota doesn't know what customers want. There seems to be a lot of posting from those with no skin in the game. That is those that do not own gen 3. You and dog friend seem to be reasonable but there have been lots of comments. First is its a hybrid it needs to act this way (false according to the mear existence of the fix), Its part of what makes it a prius (bad transition to abs, really that is a selling feature). Its the same as gen 2 (false according to Toyota). If its not a problem with gen 2 its not a problem with gen 3 (false according to Toyota a major redesign that does not even use the same software where Toyota said the bug exists (different sensors too). There is an echo chamber with defenders not listening to legitimate complaints because us new drivers (I have underwear as old as some of those drivers claiming I'm new) don't understand. We do.

I am a prius owner, not a member of the media. It hurts me financially when resale value of the gen 3 goes down. It will definitely fall faster if known problems do not get fixed. This one was. When I have trouble with my brakes, I don't think pointing around and saying that dog has a flufffy tail. I really don't listen much to the media hype. I read most of my news, so I can skip over the fluf and get more information. If something really important happens I get emails or calls (9 emails a week before the recall that it was going to happen and was software/sensor problem). Remember if you read gen 3 owner, we are not the ones trying to create media against the car we own.

THen again some days I wake up and I'm just pissed at stupid people, or terrorists, or that damn guy with a leaf blower at 7 am, and I snap.

 

The problem is not 2 instead of 6. The problem is that you are pushing the pedal 2" inches then all of a sudden a bug happens and to get the sudden you need to push it 3.5" for the same amount of braking. This takes reaction time (I'm not braking like I used to, I must change). Some people's reactions can be quite bad (its not stopping I need to pump the brakes, its not stopping maybe I'm hitting the gas instead of the breaks, etc). Its happened twice to me, and I reacted fine, but I know how this can be dangerous in certain situations especially if you have been driving for a year then all of the sudden the car decides to not brake right.

I thought the same thing when people were, um, not sure of the word that they needed 3 door sks because it was difficult to reach into a pocket or purse to touch the key, or walk to the drivers door to touch it to unlock the other doors.

 

the concerns by everyone involved is valid and there is no car that cannot withstand any type of safety improvements and i think the 40,000+ traffic deaths yearly backs my statement.

the brakes changing how they react to certain conditions is no different than "driving at a speed safe for those same conditions".

do you blame Toyota when the roads are iced up and you cant stop as quickly?

i used to live on a side of the hill that overlooked the bay in Olympia. the hill was very steep and had a roundabout at the bottom. it took a bit of practice to know what speed i need to approach and still stop safely if needed. (that speed was about 10-15 mph MUCH faster than i thought and was simply lucky the first few times i tried it!!)

i think with all cars, there is a learning curve; how it drives, corners and brakes.

with the Prius, we have other things; getting the great mileage, feathering the brakes or wanting to glide more often, etc. all of which has probably conditioned us to be lighter on the brakes than in other cars and with varying degrees of regen, its easy to gain a sense of complacency. i have done it, slowed down too slowly and realized that i was taking it too easy and had to brake abruptly. but is that a defective braking system? or one that gives up options we may or may not be prepared for. is the brakes defective or do they just need fine tuning??


WE are the defective part of this equation but that only emphasizes the importance of the safety measures and guidelines we implement. now does this brake fix warrant a recall? imho, it ranks up with ABS brakes or air bags. were all the previous cars without those much devices recalled??. no, we simply put it in our minds that we wanted that better option and would look at that the next time we purchased a car.

so all of this simply goes down as an adjustment imm. that is all. a better way. not fixing anything since it was not broken. improving it so it works better, sure i am completely on board with that.

in my 2004, an ECU program update was installed on my car. why was there not hysteria over that?? probably because the Pri had not yet become a top ten car; a target for other car companies including failing american companies...

well who knows what drives the media. imm, the ECU update a few years ago gathered little attention simply because it was not that big a deal.

the leaking engine compartment was a much much much bigger deal to me. that could conceivably cause you to be stranded. (oh oh!! should i be bringing up faded issues?) but that was a quick fix (an extra layer of weatherstripping did the trick) and apparently being stranded (maybe in the middle of nowhere) since it did not qualify as a possible safety issue (which really means its hard to hurt yourself if the car cant move) it also received very little notice besides GM and others vain attempts to play it up.

so, all in all, i am definitely in favor of the fix, but much prefer more options. a 2nd row of buttons that control braking response right below the buttons that control throttle response.

 

I will not do a recall right now. I will let Toyota experiment on other people cars first before i will let someone screw around with electronics on mine. I like the way it is.

 

This just sound like how sensitive you want your mouse or finger pad

Or is simplifying the answer too much

 

Thanks Dave,

I like this response much better.

I agree completely about the recall. This would not have blown up on toyota if they had quietly told customers complaining that they were looking in to it. Then when they had a fix in january those customers notified, with all customers notified a little later so that they could get a free fix. Quiet while taking customer into account would have been great for me and good for toyota.

My real problem with the idea of Learning to use "different brakes" is the usability of the car. Can I hand the keys to someone not trained? I tend to drink then hand my wife the keys. She is not trained, which we agree is a good thing. If toyota was up front about this fine, I wouldn't of bought the car. Toyota does not say that you need special "skills" to drive their car.

This is a good discussion point. I was only reacting to these threads because people were acting as if this was a matter of taste and toyota was being dragged into making a change for the worse. I'm fine if you say adjustment, I say bug fix, that gets to be semantics. Toyota saying "feel" and Japanese govenment saying "problem" did get us to the point of the recall though.

 

I get the impression that the English language is not his mother tongue.

 

Grumpyandold, I was not attacking you in any way. I was mearly explaining why some of us seem defensive.

 

That's too bad. The 3 dealers we go to (Tustin or Irvine in CA and Kalispell MT) all have rep's that were tech's. Minimum was 10 years, and the most senior was a tech for over 20 years. All three are very helpfull ... even when I ask DIY questions. Once (on our Lexus hybrid) they even did a free service just for good will. I couldn't believe it! Plenty of homes for sale around So cal ... so feel free to move here for better service.


.

 

"i sincerely hope you honestly do not think that was the issue being fixed. there is no such delay now or before and your statement is exactly the problem that Toyota has to contend with."

Sorry, I'm not a native English speaker. I just had a hard time understand this sentence! Can someone simplify it a bit.