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Brakes, Gas Pedals, Re-calls, Facts and Myth's

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Main Forum' started by GeoDesign, Feb 7, 2010.

  1. GeoDesign

    GeoDesign Who, Where, What, Why ?

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    Hello, Prius Chat, Forgive me now as I know this is going to be a long post.

    It is plain to see that I'm new to this forum and have few posts. Some of you may have read my braking tests comparing my Prius to my wife's Corolla. Some of you may have read my post comparing the bashing of the Prius brakes to be like the old salem witch hunts.

    Well, in this post I issue a challange. The challange is simple and it goes like this, before posting things like, bad brakes, stuck gas pedals, safety issues, toyota cover ups, death, mayhem, etc, take the time to do a little research. Forget the sensationalism the news reporters love, open your mind and do some research. All, I'm about to share is public information if you take the time to research, read and understand.

    Before I proceed, I want to say to the Trolls, Witch Hunters, what ever you are, if you do not own a Prius, drive a Prius,etc, STAY OUT OF THIS THREAD. I question the motives of those none Prius owners/drivers who fuel the fires of sensationalism.

    Now, let's seperate fact from myth.

    Myth, Gen III Prius brakes are a safety issue. Accidents have been caused by Prius brakes, the loss of braking greatly increase's stopping distance.

    Fact, Allthough the braking sensation felt by many is concerning, not 1 single Prius accidents has been proven to be the fault of the braking system. It's a good excuse, but no proof behind it.

    Fact, Stopping distance for the Prius is similair to any other car with ABS and traction control.

    Myth, Toyota is not concerned with and is trying to cover up the braking issue.

    Fact, Toyota is very concerned and has appoligized to the consumers. The software update being applied now and which will be ready for current owners soon, address' the brake feel to satisfy those alarmed by the sensation. This is not to cure a safety issue because it is not proven that one exists, but is more aimed at customer satisfaction in making the prius feel more like a conventional car.

    Fact, A similair brake feeling has been reported by drivers of diffirent cars by diffirent manufactures. Why are they not being burnt at the stake as well. My persoonel opionion is that when you are number 1 and on top of your game, everyone else is out to get you.

    Let's talk about gas pedals. Since the recall of many none Prius models with regards to sticking gas pedals, I've starting noticing posts on this forum about run away Prius'

    Fact, Only a small percentage of toyota's are truely effected by this issue. Those being the only cars with pedals from CTS. A US company in Indiana whom Toyota used to suppelment thier parts supply when thier asian manufacturer could not meet demand.

    Fact, Both Ford Motor Company and General Motors Company use the same pedals from CTS. Why are they not on the chopping block?

    Fact, Toyota's recall history pales when compared to Ford, GM or Dodge. Just to name a few, Ford electrical fires, GM gas tank's exploding in a crash, Dodge just has to many to name.

    Personal opionion, Major recalls and issues of US based car companies like Ford, GM and Dodge have to keep thier issues under wraps. They have stock and share holders to protect which hold greater weight in thier eyes then thier consumers. Toyota is the threat to them.

    All the things I stated are based on fact. Do some research. Do not look at the news reports, go to the re-call sites, use wikipedia, use your own judgement, don't be cattle and let the media and US corperations herd you where they want you. Open your eyes people, stand up for the truth, stand up for the facts.
     
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  2. scottwyden

    scottwyden new jersey photographer

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    You brought up some great points!
     
  3. hitechboy

    hitechboy New Member

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    Something you never see didn't mean they are not exist. I agree its only happen in rare situation, but the brake problem do exist. I don't know how many different cars your have owned, I never have that problem on any of the 7 car I own over my driving life and all of them have antilock brake.
     
  4. GeoDesign

    GeoDesign Who, Where, What, Why ?

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    hitechboy, you seem to have missed the point of the post. I never said there wasn't an issue. My opionion is that it is blown out of proportion. Do some research, show me facts that it is a safety issue, show me where it increases stopping distance, show me a resulting accident.

    In regards to your 7 other cars to which you have not had this issue, does that mean it doesn't exist for others because you have not experienced it? Many Prius owners have not experienced the brake sensation, what does that mean? Has the brake issue caused you to have an accident? Has it increased your stopping distance?

    Again, the point here is fact, do the research, back up your claims with verifiable information.
     
  5. Fstr911

    Fstr911 Member

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    Geo thanks for your post. I appreciate you taking the time to present this.

    However, when people site "facts", it's always nice to make reference the source(s).

    If I understand what you wrote the "fact is" there have never been any accidents caused by the brakes and stopping distance is not affected (under any circumstance?), but Toyota is very concerned. Then why is Toyota very concerned?

    Could the real story be that Toyota has identified a software issue with the brake software, however the data does not (yet) show any evidence indicating a highly unusual or alarming condition?

    But if there is no problem with the brake system (as your facts show) then why has Toyota upgraded the software on the GEN III models?

    I do agree with you that rumors and myths grow quickly when the news media starts reporting. And allegations (as mentioned below) may, or may not, turn out to be true.

    Feb. 4: NHTSA today announced it is opening a formal investigation of the Toyota Prius Hybrid model year 2010 to look into allegations of momentary loss of braking capability while traveling over an uneven road surface, pothole or bump. The agency received 124 reports from consumers, including four alleging that crashes occurred. Investigators have spoken with consumers and conducted pre-investigatory field work. “Safety is our top priority,” said Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood. “That is why in recent weeks NHTSA has also issued a consumer advisory on the recall of several models of Toyota vehicles and the Pontiac Vibe involving pedal entrapment and sticky accelerator pedals. We will continue to monitor these issues closely.”

    Source: http://www.nhtsa.gov/

    I love my Prius too, but life safety is very close to my heart.
     
  6. bighouse

    bighouse Active Member

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    OP: Do you have any connection financially with Toyota? Do you receive any perks from Toyota or any sponsorship of any kind? I am suspicious.
     
  7. GeoDesign

    GeoDesign Who, Where, What, Why ?

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    Fstr911,

    I agree that referencing would be more enlighting, I was trying to keep the post short and get my point across. Anyone can research.

    In regards to the brakes, the reponse from Toyota is a matter of customer satisfaction and to qwell the media. Owners whom see this as safety issue would be outraged if Toyota said otherwise and of course the media would have a field day. One needs to pick thier battles. Is it better to fight or to give in and say, ok, were sorry and we will correct this?

    In regards to stopping distance we will take into account the worst case complaint and give it the benefit of the doubt.

    Let's say your traveling at 10 MPH and you lost your brakes completely for 1/2 full second. Simple math tells us that;

    A mile is 5280 ft and at 10 MPH it would take you 60 minutes to travel 52800 ft or 10 miles. There are 3600 seconds in a minute. That means for every second you are moving 14.6 ft. That means in that 1/2 second you have traveled 7.3 ft. Now this is being genrious as the loss of braking sensation time line is much shorter then this. At best it is only 1/4 of a second which again would reduce this to 3.6 ft.

    Many things effect stopping distance in any car. Things like brake and tire temperture, road conditions, so on and so forth which have much greater variation then the numbers you see above. If your stopping depends fixed distances of 3, 7 or even 14 ft. then you are braking way to late to begin with.

    The point being that the braking distance with the PRIUS is well with in normal varitions of other vehicles that are deemed safe. The fact that you can feel it in the PRIUS but not in other cars is where the problem is.
     
  8. Jim Clark

    Jim Clark Member

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    We have not experienced any issues with our 2010 Prius. I rarely drive it, it's the wife's commuter car. I do intend to find a section of bumpy road and see if I can recreate what others are experiencing.

    I believe Ford may have done a recent voluntary recall or TSB on some of its hybrid vehicles to do a software upgrade to the braking system, but I could not find info on their website.
     
  9. bighouse

    bighouse Active Member

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    GeoDesign,

    Again, I respectfully ask you, do you derive any financial benefit from any association with Toyota? Do you receive perks from them in any way in the way of incentives, passes to events, higher priority to test drive vehicles, discounts, etc. etc.? Here's why I'm asking. It seems to me that this is essentially the same line of thought I'm beginnning to see creep through PriusChat from the top or near top down and is VERY noticeable in Russell Frost's recent editorial. I also couldn't help but notice the Toyota sponsorship logo atop Russell's page atop the list of sponsors...and it dawned on me, perhaps incorrectly, that perhaps those in the top positions at PriusChat and PriusOwnersGroup have an incentive to defend Toyota's products even to the extent of blaming drivers themselves for this situation. I'm getting sick of hearing it's not a defect, that it's just the way the car works and drivers need to adjust to it and leave more room in front of them than they would while driving other types of vehicles.

    Here's a fact for you. I've had this problem happen to me twice now. Each instance was in the exact same situation, performing the exact same procedure, and even in the same location. Now, I've also done the same thing hundreds of times without an incident- so it's not easily repeatable. And, here's another fact, the first time it happened my car stopped about 3.6 feet BEYOND where I would normally stop it. In fact, I thought for certain when it happened that I was going to take out my mailbox in front of my house. Fortunately I stopped just inches in front of it, but I normally would have been about 3.6 feet plus those inches away from it.

    Fact: It happens, it's real and it DOES extend stopping distances. So, I have no doubt that this condition can cause accidents when people in critical braking situations, like intersections or in traffic, don't have the stopping distance they think they do in front of them.

    Fact: Apparently Toyota's engineers also agree it's a safety issue. Do you really think they would issue a fix and now recall all 2010 in Japan if it were not? That's an awfully expensive way to get PR when they could do it more cheaply in advertisement campaigns...which, I'm starting to feel they may in fact be doing but from a real ground-up internet forum based method.

    It's not just a feeling, it's real. Quit blaming drivers. Which reminds me, didn't Toyota once have an ad campaign slogan "Oh, what a feeling!" I guess they were talking about that first time when your brakes drop out on you.

    So, back to my question about you and any connection to Toyota...is there any?
     
  10. GeoDesign

    GeoDesign Who, Where, What, Why ?

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    OP: Do you have any connection financially with Toyota? Do you receive any perks from Toyota or any sponsorship of any kind? I am suspicious.

    I wish I did. They could take over my payments:D.

    I'm just pointing out that we need to do our home work and base opionion on fact, not hype.

    It is not my intention to discount any issues or personnel opionions.

    I just don't like things being blown out of protion with out facts.

    I carry this idea to all subjects. In my line of work I do system designs for an alternative energy company. Solar, Geothermal, etc.

    I have to base, make and change designs based on testing and fact, not subjective opionion.
     
  11. GeoDesign

    GeoDesign Who, Where, What, Why ?

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    Bighouse,

    To be clear, I am not, do not, nor am I lobbying in anyway on behalf of Toyota. I do not miss-count or dis-agree with your opionions in anyway. I'm just stating mine.

    My opionion, and I say again, my opionion only, that the braking issues presents no more of a safety hazard them any other type of automotive braking system on the market. Braking distance varies for every car for many reasons. We notice it in the Prius. If we did not notice it, and again, MY OPIONION, this debate would not be occuring.

    Bighouse, I like constructive debate. We don't always have to agree, but we must always respect each others opionion. I respect yours and only ask that you do the same.
     
  12. Fstr911

    Fstr911 Member

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    Re: Oh, what a feeling!" I guess they were talking about that first time when your brakes drop out on you.

    Like Larry the Cable guy would say; "I don't care who your are...that there is funny!"
     
  13. GeoDesign

    GeoDesign Who, Where, What, Why ?

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    To the forum,

    Now I post and interesting challange. If anyone can provided proof of any car by any manufacturer, that produce the same stopping distance results in all conditions all the time I will make a video of myself in a pink tutu, doing the chicken dance while singing pants on the ground and post it on this forum:eek:
     
  14. bac

    bac Active Member

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    It's:

    -the brakes
    -the regen brakes
    -the drive by wire (computer)
    -the gas pedal
    -the floor mats
    -your tin hat obsured the view

    STOP! For those of us with even a hint of logic (that does narrow the filed quite a bit) - USE YOUR BRAIN FOR JUST A SECOND!

    Think Audi. Think of how their reputation and company was crushed by what was later found to be NOTHING.

    Toyota knows that there is NO DEFECT in ANY of their cars. They are in full blown damage control mode given the bullshit hysteria the media and the COMPETITION has caused with this silly, silly stuff.

    Again, for those in which this applies, just try to use your logical brain for just a second. You'll figure it out. :rolleyes:

    -Brad
     
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  15. GeoDesign

    GeoDesign Who, Where, What, Why ?

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    Bac,

    Thanks, That's all i'm getting at. Don't buy into the bullshit. Use your own logic and reasoning. Do the research. The answers are there.
     
  16. bighouse

    bighouse Active Member

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    GeoDesign,
    You'll get no disgreement from me on that! Without hesitation I will tell you that you do have the right to your own opinion. I respect YOU and I respect almost anyone. About the only way a person can lose my repsect is when they intentionally mistreat others. I'm not a belittler in any way. However, I think there's a difference between showing respect to one as a person and disagreeing with their position on a matter. I will always tell you that you have the right to your opinion. I recognize my opinion as just that too. Others will disagree with me. I'm fine with that. However, time is usually the arbiter of such matters and we will know later this week more about the braking situation on the Prius. Afterward we can all say "I told you so" because, in reality, none of us really knows enough about the extent of the issue or have the ability or equipment or resources to fully document the problem; I suspect we will all be partially right. We'll have to wait for the results from testing from Toyota and other agencies for that...but, I've a hunch Toyota has already done their testing and that's why there's been a fix in place on the assembly lines for a month now. I doubt they would make a change to a product based on a "feeling"...so we'll see soon enough more about what's really going on.
     
  17. Fstr911

    Fstr911 Member

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    Geo make the video regardless. What the heck.
     
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  18. bighouse

    bighouse Active Member

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    hahahahahah!
     
  19. Silver bullit

    Silver bullit Right Lane Cruiser

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    Fact- I have had my Prius for one year and I have had zero problems. Fact- so far this year I have spent $20.00 for gas. Fact- the car is smarter than me sometimes. One time the display lit up and I am sitting there cussing this POS machine. Then I notice the icon for drivers door not completely closed. Duh! Closed the door. Problem resolved. My opinion is that this is an excellent car for some people. There are also other excellent cars out there. That's what makes a market. Drive safely.
     
  20. GeoDesign

    GeoDesign Who, Where, What, Why ?

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    :DSorry Guy's,

    You'll have to work for that pink tutu video.