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How much fuel in the battery?

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Technical Discussion' started by odaigle, Feb 4, 2010.

  1. odaigle

    odaigle New Member

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    I have been wondering how much fuel the ICE consumes to charge the battery. Usually, the hybrid system is very aggressive at keeping the battery with at least 2 bars of charge and it is also very aggressive at keeping the battery with at least two bars of uncharged capacity. Thus, how much fuel the ICE uses to charge the battery from 2 bars to full minus 2 bars?

    My gross estimation is 220g/kWh, at, say, 80% efficiency, for about 0.75 kWh, for a fuel density of 0.75g/cm^3, would give avout 0.3 litres of fuel. Is that right ? Any thoughts or numbers ?
     
  2. David Beale

    David Beale Senior Member

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    The system is only about 50% efficient charging then discharging the battery. That's why it's better to use the ICE than EV mode.

    The battery could propel the car about 5 km before it would -have- to be recharged. If you assume an average of 4.7 l/100 km, or .047 l/km then 5 km on EV mode would be equivalent to 0.24 l, so pretty close to your calculation. But at 50% efficiency it could take twice that to recharge it. Or perhaps less as it's 50% overall (charge/discharge) so maybe 25% recharge loss.

    But all this is really moot, unless you're using EV mode a lot. The system uses the battery to -increase- the ICE efficiency, and I suspect that totally swamps any losses in the battery. That is why the car gets the best mileage of any gasoline or diesel car sold in North America.
     
  3. odaigle

    odaigle New Member

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    I was expecting more than 50% of efficiency for the battery charging/discharging processes. That is pretty low. How would you break down this efficiency?
    90% ICE -> MG1
    80% MG1 -> Battery
    80% Battery -> MG2
    90% MG2 -> Wheels.
    Overall efficiency: 52%

    How does that sounds?

    Since my question was how much fuel is needed to recharge the battery, the ICE --> battery efficiency would be about 72% in that case.
     
  4. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    By my calculations, 220 gm of fuel (your amount) contains 2.6 KWH of chemical energy. This is converted to mechanical energy at about 30% efficiency by the Prius engine (0.78 KWH). So I think we are in the same range. Whatever the most accurate value, it is clear that the HV battery contains very little energy compared to a full fuel tank.
     
  5. direstraits71

    direstraits71 Member

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    Just a reminder per the OP's original question, the amount of capacity from 2 bars to 6 bars is only 30% of the total.
     

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  6. David Beale

    David Beale Senior Member

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    I don't have the figures for the 2010. I think they are available for the GII if you search around.

    -Usually- you can consider the MGs efficiency from industry averages. For mid-power motor/generators that's around 80-85%. These are mid-power MGs. Low power units are generally from 0-5 HP (or the electrical equivalent), 70-80% efficiency. Mid-power would be from 5-50 HP, and high power 50 and up with efficiencies in the 95% area.

    The inverter/charger could be considered to be about 95-98% efficient, depending on what it's doing.

    NiMH batteries are considered to be about 70-80% efficient on charge and about 75-85% efficient on discharge. It's lower if you charge/discharge beyond 80% full charge, so the limited range of use is what helps here.

    There will be losses in the mechanical connections as well, that many try to ignore. Probably in the order of 10% in the direct connections and much more in the diff. if the power is going to/from the wheels. Diffs are usually in the order of 15% losses.

    All these losses explain why things heat up as they do.

    So you can estimate the total losses by adding them up depending on power flow.

    You -could- also calculate the loss in any one device by flowing a measured amount of power through it and measuring its'
    temperature rise. This would be a difficult measurement, but it's doable. We had exercises like this when I was in school. As I recall, this is how the US govt. estimated the losses in the Toyota HSD a few years ago (GII).
     
  7. odaigle

    odaigle New Member

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    Thanks for this data. I was remembering seeing it somewhere, but I could not find it anymore... So, from 2 to 6 bars, it is only about 400Wh instead of the 750 I quoted earlier...
     
  8. odaigle

    odaigle New Member

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    The 220 g/kWh comes from the 2ZR-FXE engine efficiency map. At its peak efficiency, the ICE is using 220 g of fuel to produce 1 kWh of usable energy (something you can move the car with).

    The reason I have started this thread is the following: You start your car and the battery is at 2 bars. You drive a only a few kilometres and get a very bad FC/FE. However, when you stop your car, your battery is at two bars from the top. How can you compensate your FC/FE with regards of the "fuel" that was put into your battery, thus, energy that was not used but accounted for into the FC/FE reading. The reciprocal is also true: you start at two bars from top and get outstanding FC/FE. However, when you stop your car, your battery is nearly empty...

    I know that on the long run, (i.e., over a whole fuel tank), everything averages out. However, for a single short trip, the FC/FE is a lot affected by the differential state of the battery at the beginning and at the end of the trip.
     
  9. Flying White Dutchman

    Flying White Dutchman Senior Member

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    ok i am sorry but this is a open door for mee :D

    haha:p

    "How much fuel in the battery?"
    about 3 gallons.:cool:
     
  10. David Beale

    David Beale Senior Member

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    Your biggest problem is you are relying on the battery gauge, which is notoriously inaccurate from when you shut off the car to when you restart. It varies all over the place.

    This is always a problem, that is, figuring out how much charge is in the battery. The battery voltage is often used, but it also varies by temperature and age. Some systems (Prius is one) keep track of the charge being put in and calculate the charge level using that, but again, you must constantly correct this estimate. If you then use the voltage to correct it you have just added more inaccuracies.
    You -could- watch for the dramatic temp. rise you see with NiMH batteries under charge at the 80% charge level, but again, what is the capacity of the battery? It varies with age and varies between cells even when new.
    With my NiMH cells (not the Prius ones!) I will often fully charge them (gently overcharge to ensure they are fully charged), then discharge them and measure how much I get out. But again, there are lots of variables to watch, such as the temperature of the cells, when (voltage) you cut off the discharge, voltage drops in the connections, and last but not least, the change in capacity with each charge/discharge cycle.

    It isn't easy to figure out the charge level! It's amazing to me Prius does it as well as it does. I -have- seen reasonable accuracies in these types of calculations, because they were repeatable to within a few percent, but it's rare.
     
  11. odaigle

    odaigle New Member

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    At first, I was looking for a first order estimate... which is about 0.15 - 0.2 L to put 400Wh into the battery. Which means, for a 10 km ride, the indicated FC difference can be in excess of 1.5-2 L/100km when starting with an empty battery and stopping with a full battery.

    It is always fun to try to refine a bit the first order estimates, but I understand the difficulties of precisely measuring the charge in the battery, especially with varying temperatures, varying efficiencies, and so on... Thanks for your replies.