If It's Just a Software Fix, Why the Delay?

Just bought a 2010 Prius the day before this issue emerged. My dealer already has a hotline to the VP of Customer Relations regarding Toyota's issues. I emailed her about this; as of 1:30 PM EST she had no information from Toyota.

I had a 2006 Prius for 3.5 years/96k miles, never experienced any brake problems, and I notice that owners of this generation Prius are popping up on various forums claiming that Gen II Priuses had the same brake problem.

At the same time, it appears that there's been enough evidence of problems that Toyota implemented a production change beginning in January of this year. Therefore, I agree that they're dragging their feet on informing existing owners.

 

Correct - if it was safe to modify the code at the factory - it's safe to apply that code to the older 2010's.

 

Sorry I can't be as bright as you are. I just expect the car to stop when it has to. If a bumpy road causes the brakes to not work properly, it is up to Toyota to make it safe. You are lucky it didn't happen to you. If it does happen for the first time, let me know that you would have slowed down or stepped harder on the brake. Neither would have prevented it from happening. Duh!

 

We enjoy the ambigous references, like "properly" and "safe".

That's so vague, it could mean anything. For that matter, so could "delay".

Cars here slide on snow & ice daily. They don't stop when you expect them to. Where should the line of expectation be drawn?
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The line for me should be drawn here:

When the brake pedal is pushed the appropriate amount of pressure is applied to the discs. ABS operates at expected effectiveness. The rest is physics.

 

• What if the so call fix on the production line is not what we expect. i.e. its only slightly improve the response time? Then the government will reject it as a fix just like the zip tie. And user will also revoke.
  
  
• What if the so call fix on the production line involve better and faster hardware combine with a software change to function?
  
  
• What if the software was on a ROM chip that was solder on the PCB?

 

Quantify "expected" please.
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Toyota has already admitted to a flaw in the design.

The brakes do not work properly.

The safety agencies have draw the line. The car are rare occasions has braking malfunctions.

How can you still be blaming the drivers that experience this.

Please buy a clue.

 

I think the OP has a good question. Back when I was learning about software development (a long time ago), discovery of a nasty bug was a big problem and took a lot of time and expensive logistics to fix. Over time, the software industry has gotten a lot better at it.

Today we're all used to getting a weekly update from Microsoft, that for many of us is downloaded and installed automatically when we have the computer "parked" overnight. Some of the computers using this software perform tasks that involve life safety (such as the highway bridge design software I use) or amounts of money with lots of zeros, and we accept this. The industry is still improving its deployment methods with thin client apps.

The main thing that is different about a car manufacturer is that it hasn't yet learned how to be a software company, especially how to manage risks and costs the way a software company does. It will get better with time and I don't think it's unreasonable at all for us to demand it to get better.

 

Flushing the software is a piece of cake. However, it is not the Toyota plant assembly line workers who are going to do this. The job has to be done by the mechanics at the dealers garage. The mechanics would rather change your timing chain or work on your brakes than performing the recall works. The reason is simple, the money they earn from the former is a lot more than the later. Performing the recall work is reimbursed by Toyota Corp. and is only a fraction of working on other repair items - providing both have the same repair time.
As long as the Prius "suspected brake problem" is not an immediate life-threatening suitation, they are going to let the dealers clear up the logs on the Camry/RAV4/Matrix problem first.
To announce two major recalls at almost the same time is like suicide.
Prius owners, looks like we have to be patience for a little while before our turn comes.

 

I agree with you. For the dealer, it is like somebody just took away 50% of their sales. If it goes on too long, they will be out of business. They are going to fix that first. They are not looking long term. They are not looking 6 months from now. In six months, if the problem is not fixed, the dealer will be out of business.

The 2010 Prius owners are not buying another car soon - not in the next 3-6 months anyway. They can moan, swear they won't buy another Toyota etc, but the dealer has more immediate survival concerns. They are not going to make you more upset - long term business is important - but I doubt they will put you ahead of the recall customers or the new and used cars in inventory.

That's the way I see it. I am not saying it is right.

 

Ford did a secret update on the Fusion hybrid production in last October, and they had no intent to tell existing users about the update until the Prius issue was raised a few days ago.

I believe a recall process can not be done in a day.
A car manufacturer has to work with a government organization, like NHTSA in the US, for issuing a recall.
It takes many days, I think.

Anyway, it looks a recall for the Prius brake fix will be issued in a few days in Japan.
Japanese dealers already received the fix kit and they are ready to do the fix.
Some Japanese Prius already applied the fix unofficially (before the recall announcement).
The fix (flash firmware download) takes less than 20 minutes, they said.

They also said the fix changed the feelings noticeably and the brake loss was almost instantly recovered by hydraulic.

So, please stay tuned. The fix is coming soon on a worldwide basis.

Ken@Japan

 

This question touches on an important point. The essence of this thread is that it should be possible to download new firmware to the brake control system, just as we download firmware updates to other devices we own, such as a cell phone or an MP3 player. However there is an important difference. Consumer devices are not safety critical and are designed for a relatively short lifetime, maybe 5 years. Their firmware typically resides in flash memory. Flash memory leaks and can lose its data over time. The time frame for data retention is many years (10 years is a typical spec), which is fine for non-critical consumer devices. However this likely not acceptable for a brake control system, which must be designed for a longer life (maybe 15 years) and is safety critical. So my educated guess (I design computer systems) is that the code must be in ROM for reliability purposes (ROM is frozen silicon, it does not leak). Moreover, for cost and reliability purposes it is likely that the ROM is not a separate chip, but a component within a System on a Chip (SoC). If so, Toyota would need to place a sudden order from their vendor for an additional 300K of their customized microcontroller with the updated ROM contents. It will then probably take a month or even more before the chips are fabricated and arrive at a dealer. However, this is probably OK because that may be about how long it takes before you can get a service appointment at the dealer following the accelerator recall

 

lol - there are plenty of similar situations (software controlled CT scanners for one come to mind given the recent publicity on over-irradiation of patients)...

 

Was it fixed Jan. 1 or Jan 31? I don't know that it's been a whole month now. Also, I am sure most dealerships and service departments have way more to do than read forums. They won't know about the fix until Toyota contacts them.

 

Toyota is in a bad place right now. With 8 models pulled from sales, the Prius is just about the only car they can sell. And Priuses sell WELL! If there is an official recall, the Prius will take a marketing hit (even if the fix is already included in new models) and Toyota dealers will lose even more business. So I'm guessing that Toyota HQ is dragging their feet as long as the can until some of the current 'fires' calm down a bit.

 

Expected is within the limited range of operational differences that has become standard in over 100 years of motor vehicle production.

 

First, let me say that I love my Prius. I am very happy to have bought it, and enjoy driving it every day.

That said, I have experienced the braking issue. I am a careful, law-abiding driver and am an intelligent professional. Posts suggesting that those of us who experience braking issues lack driving knowledge are ignorant. I noticed the braking issue the first week I had my car, when I thought I was going to rear end someone on the highway during rush hour in Portland, where it *always* rains. I pressed the brakes - and then kept going. There was a weird noise and I wondered if something had hit me, but determined it had not been *that* weird. I kept going, albeit at an even farther distance from the car in front of me.

I have significantly adjusted my driving behaviors to adapt to my car's brakes. Having never owned a hybrid before, I initially assumed this type of braking was normal for hybrids. Now I realize that is not true. My car "pauses" when I try to stop on uneven, (especially wet) pavement, which I am on often. Those of you who say this braking issue is rare are wrong when it comes to my car. It happens many times per week. Yes, I've adjusted and have not had an accident, nor do I anticipate having one, as I drive much more cautiously than before (and I was already *that* driver to my friends - the one who does not take risks).

I guess my point is to politely ask those of you who are fortunate enough not to be affected by this issue to consider refraining from insulting those of us who are. It's wonderful that the Prius you love can get you where you need to go safely, and stop once you get there - right away. I'd ask that you wish the same for the rest of us.

 

Yep, besides the regulatory aspects mentioned by Prius Team and alluded to by ken1784, you've got to get signoff and buyoff on everything.

Besides testing the fix itself and making sure nothing else worse could happen, the flashing tool or application used by the mechanics might need to be updated. It might need testing (by virtue of the update). It might need to be localized (translated to various languages) as whatever's used in the factory is likely only in Japanese. The directions themselves need to be written, translated, proofread, tested, signed off from people ranging from engineering to legal. There needs to be budgeting and a notification process. All throughout, I'm sure Toyota had a schedule and checklist of items that needed to be completed.

I work in software and have been through this type of stuff MANY times and our software doesn't affect control anything that could mean life, death or injury.