Toyoda Hubris To Blame

Please folks, STOP FEEDING THE TROLL!!!
Ignore his posts and let them die.
(Dang ~ I just did it myself..)

 

Personally, I like the fact that the Toyoda family scion came on TV and apologized. It sounded genuine, but as we all know words and actions stand together not separately.

As for hubris, definitely yes. It's not so much the defects. It's the a-hole engineer who decided to give braking logic to a computer *without* cutover redundancy. It's the other a-hole engineer who decided to make the ignition on-button work differently (take extra time) to shut it off. Toyota's design took control from the driver and put it into the hands of a buggy computer system because they thought the computer would do a better job. Their decisions gravely affect driver reaction times and contributed to the perception or misperception of any Prius problem. The hubris is in engineering.

They are, however, working on a monumental project with the promise to change and/or save the world. So I can maybe forgive them for some slights, but not safety oversights.

 

The hubris is engineering!
This is rubbish. The computer is far from buggy. And there is cutover redundancy. If the brake ECU failed the brake pedal would work as a regular brake pedal. Of course it takes extra time to shut off! What if you hit the power button by mistake while driving?!

So next time they are going to ask you genius how to make two motor/generators a and an ICE work together in harmony, while making the transitions as smooth as possible, while optimizing fuel economy, while keeping the car controls manual and give the user total control of the system as you would like.
On a side note: the same buggy computer senses emergency braking and applies extra braking force to save the poor-driver-in-the-hands-of-the-evil-machine's nice person.

 

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This is one of the problems.

The US and Japanese safety agencies have evidence of brakes that do not work properely and have caused injury accidents.

It would be nice if Toyota did not use misinformation, insinuating that they have no evidence of brake failures (true), so it must only be feel. The safety agencies and Toyota have evidence of brakes temporarily not working (not failures) and if Toyota wants to regain customer confidence they should be honest about that.

On Wednesday my sources told me that the Japanese government was fed up, and there would be a recall. ken's sources, and the sources of this site have also said there will be a recall. Ken has even been informed by his dealership that this is the case.

I agree with those voices that say that a solution takes time. I have disdain for those voices that still claim that toyota is being railroaded, and my safety issues are not important. That I and others that have had problems just don't understand the braking system and its only brake feel.

Toyota has said that they are cooperating with the safety investigations. They did not fully cooperate with these agencies on the unintended acceleration issue. I would like a public statement that they are fixing the problem, and not statements that its just brake feel.

 

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It needs a software update to work right. Toyota admitted this. Nothing more here as it's self explanatory.

If there was cutover redundancy the deceleration would not disappear. How the hell do we even know it only lasts for a few moments? Anecdotal evidence, no truth. No one ever expects partial braking.

There are far better solutions than making switches work unintuitively. Put a cover over the ignition button, or use a momentary rotational switch.

These are very basic expectations in a car: It does what you want and stops as you control it.

 

I don't like to accuse anyone of "being a troll".

While the OP's opinion is going to be upsetting to many Prius Owners and Toyota supporters there is a "chance" that it is a valid opinion.

However, a huge debate over it seems a waste of time. My simple answer to the OP would be if you REALLY feel that "snake bitten" by the Toyota brand, and have lost faith then there really is no other choice than to make a change. Sell or Trade in your vehicle ASAP...because nothing anyone says or does is going to convince you that Toyota is a good manufacturer.

I would suggest probably to no avail, that while I agree some things from a PR standpoint haven't been handled well, and I also would agree that I'm very disappointed in how Toyota is handling the announcement...or non-announcement of how or what they plan to do about the 2010 Prius brake software, I would still suggest that Toyota is a good manufacturer.

I don't think anyone would deny that these are probably the darkest days Toyota has ever experienced as a company. But ultimately I think the product they produce is among the industry leaders. The reputation of most of Toyota's line-up has been sterling for decades. Unfortunately in the auto industry all it takes is 1 defect and it can turn into a nightmare, which it has for Toyota.

I believe fix the problems (which in general, Sans Software issue, as of now) I think Toyota is doing...and then get back to business...

If you've lost faith? That's too bad. Toyota does make the best Hybrids and commercially available green car options. Trade your car in if you must. But I wouldn't be as happy with a Ford Fusion Hybrid (same/similar brake issues) or an Insight or Civic Hybrid. The upcoming Volt and Nissan Leaf are unknown quantities. But do what you must. Everyone has a right to be as happy with their automobile as possible and if you sincerely feel as upset as you demonstrate in your OP? Then I think the only answer is move on.

 

I think a funny thing happens in the evolution of a company. At first someone has a passion for something they invent or create. They acquire some capitol and develop it as a product...all the while being very passionate about the product. A great product sells and it takes off. The original inventor gets too busy and turns the reigns over to others who are "business minds" not someone passionate about the product, but more passionate about the business. Eventually the passion for profit trumps the passion for the product...and responsibility to shareholders take precident over responsiblity to product owners. And then decisions are made not on what's best for the future of the product, but what's best for the bean-counters and the legal department. It bugs me when companies decide it's better to make/save money off of money than to make/save money by making a great product better. I think that's a problem for many companies in this modern world. They've lost focus on what they are providing and instead focus on shareholders and current stock prices.

 

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I also don't see what the big deal with the stuck accelerator pedals is. If people would just drive safe and leave plenty of room in front of you you can handle a little runaway acceleration. We know what the problem is, and we know what will happen even if we cannot know exactly when it will happen. Just leave plenty of room in front of you and be ready to hit the power button. No problem at all for those who drive safe!

 

Please tell me you are joking. Right?

No, sorry Toyota HAD to fix this problem. When it comes to sticking accelerator pedals Toyota HAD to fix this problem, would you of told 70's Pinto Drivers to just wear flame retardent clothing and carry a fire extinguisher?

I think the extent of the problem and the reality has been blown out of proportion by the media BUT Toyota had no choice.

 

and those whiners about how toyotas killed their mother. There are ties to gm in most of them.

A Lawsuit Raises More Questions for Toyota - NYTimes.com

 

Pinto fires only killed 27 people, just as many died from faulty transmissions in those cars, and the only reason everyone brings up the fires is because the media blew that problem way out of proportion, just like they are doing with the Prius brakes.

The NHTSA investigation into the Pinto lacked enough evidence to prompt a mandatory recall. Ford did that on their own, because the media left them no choice, just like Toyota is forced to recall the Prius brakes which have no problems whatsoever and are in fact just the way they are supposed to be with random periods of safe brake dropout to keep things interesting and encourage safer driving habits..

Pinto link

 

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Yes, this feature of the Prius brakes will encourage people to drive safer. The skip we experience is predictable in that we know what will happen even though we don't know when. People will have to simply give plenty of room between you and the vehicle in front of you, which they should be doing anyway. If approaching crosswalks or at the mall or anywhere else people would be, just don't run up close to the cross walk or where they are. At slow speeds, the couple of feet you travel can be dangerous, but not if you're leaving plenty of safe distance.

People like me who understand the issue know that it clearly is not a problem.

 

i had 5 Subaru's over 12 years before my prius. all decent cars. all with some minor manufacturer recalls. they were all fixed. I was never looking for any kind of reimbursement or apology. they NEVER apologized. it's big "loss of face" for Toyota to apologize. accept it. take it easy with your car before it gets fixed. after it's fixed be thankfull they owned up and did something about it. move on with life.


and stop bitchin'

don't assume



you're making an nice person out of you and you

 

You obviously have never touched a computer in your life. Nor you have a clue of what a program is, and what buggy software means. If you did, you would know that a bug free program is a contradiction in terms as even the most advanced software (being man made) has got bugs, exploits, etc. A software with one known bug which can be fixed is not buggy. It's a piece of software and a great one considering the complexity of the car which has to drive.

It has yet to be proved if it is a complete loss of deceleration or if a decrease in the deceleration rate (which I remind you occurs under specific circumstances). Your so called anecdotal evidence is what most users feel. Well the majority of people feels a decrease in deceleration rate, so the deceleration does not disappear. As we are not the designers of the Prius we don't know if there is no redundancy at all, or if there isn't enough and why the system works in this way.

Again you speak as you spent the last 20 years living under a rock. Any person who has ever used a computer or a cellular phone knows that holding down the power button turns off the device. That's the most intuitive way and people are accustomed to this kind of design.

The first expectation in a good driver is to know the capabilities of the car he is driving. The car DOES what you want, if what you are asking is within its capabilities. If you know that you can trigger a sudden loss of braking power by braking LIGHTLY on a rough surface THEN you should adjust you driving style accordingly (that is braking earlier or compensate the decrease in deceleration rate as you feel it). The same would apply to a RWD BMW owner driving in the rain, he cannot the expect the car to corner as an AWD car. He must adjust his driving style accordingly.

 

This commentary is simply unbelievable - "leave plenty of room". Infantile and shallow. Yep no problem at all. So let's just all compensate for engineering/manufacturing/management issues as this.

By the way what type of vehicle do YOU drive???? Not a Prius I see.... Why are you even here????

 

maybe he was being sarcastic