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10 positive things to do for the environment

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by icarus, Jan 21, 2010.

  1. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Does anyone have a quick translation between American and metric R units?

    By our units, R4.5 and R3 are fairly close to 'uninsulated'.
     
  2. patsparks

    patsparks An Aussie perspective

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    Some Aussies live underground, like in Coober Pedy and Andamooka. Even underground hotels and churches.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    A housing estate in Coober Pedy
    [​IMG]
    jk.

    Australia was settled by poms mate, they had no idea and we keep on the same track. Building an alternative type of house is hard to get approvals for. My sister lives in a mud brick home built into the side of a hill, but that is really unusual. It is a really nice house and my brother in law built it all. It has recycled timber framing and exposed earth walls.
     
  3. patsparks

    patsparks An Aussie perspective

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    R4.5 is 200 mm thick rock wool.

    Remember the first part of my post, I choose to live in a mild climate.
     
  4. Rae Vynn

    Rae Vynn Artist In Residence

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    Let's see, in no particular order:

    1) Went vegan from omnivore.

    2) Replaced a standard car (28 mpg) with a Prius (48 mpg).

    3) Replaced every incandescent bulb with CFL, except the porch flood lights - put LEDs in them, and put them on a motion sensor instead of the dusk-2-dawn thing.

    4) Switched to reusable shopping bags, and reusable produce bags, AND USE THEM!

    5) Buy organic most of the time - at least the 'dirty dozen'.

    6) Switched to only biodegradable cleaning supplies.

    7) Switched to soap nuts for laundry.

    8) Replaced main home heating [electric wall units] to a ductless heat pump system.

    9) Went vegan (this is worth two entries).

    10) Grow our own greens in our front yard, using compost we make ourselves from our veggies wastes, and organic soil - no chemicals!
     
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  5. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    R-Value is R-value as far as I know.

    It is the inverse of the U-value. The U-value is is the amount of BTUs transfered through a material per degree Delta T f/ ft sq if memory serves. I believe it is universally accepted.
     
  6. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    I found a conversion factor. Your R4.5 ceiling and R3 walls correspond to R26 and R17 on our scale. Much more reasonable.
    No, there is a difference. Ours is expressed in Btus, square feet, and degrees F. His is in watts, square meters, and degrees C.
     
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  7. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    I stand corrected!
    ;)
     
  8. chogan2

    chogan2 Senior Member

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    We who are condemned by our collective stupidity to live with English Units say the following:

    1) Once upon a time in America, we were going to make the conversion to metric. I can recall dual-distance mile/km interstate signs in my youth.

    2) But then the dummies took over, or something.

    3) Quick, now, how many yards in a mile? How many square yards in an acre? How many acres in a square mile?

    4) That's a statute mile, of course, not a nautical mile.

    5) How many guys out there, like me, have complete sets of English and Metric fill-in-the-blank -- socket sets, wrenches, Allen wrenches.

    6) Oddly, no matter how metric cars have become in the US, every fitting on the car will be metric except the @#$#$ lugnuts and the @#@#$ battery terminals. So you still have to carry dual tools to do basic maintenance.

    7) My observation, via my kids, is that we're going to drop English units just a matter of ignorance. Maybe metric will come and fill the vacuum, maybe not. Both my kids are numerate, neither of them can tell you how many yards in a mile, acres in a square mile, and so on. Whereas, I was drilled in all that crap as a kid. And, on net, upon reflection, I don't think that's a bad thing, really. Let the trivia die a natural death.

    8) OK, back on point. Call 200mm about 8 inches. Rock wool is about the same as fiberglass or English Units R3/inch. So I make that out to be an R24 wall, or thereabouts, based on the thickness of the rock wool.

    Let's check that against an English/Metric converter. For those of us who can do algebra, looks to me like you multiply your metric Rs by 5.68 to get to a US R.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-value_(insulation)

    So, metric 4.5*5.68 = about R25, English units.

    So that checks. Crude calc from insulation depth = R24 in US units, direct conversion gives R25.

    Pat's walls are insulated about twice as well as typical US building code requires. We ask for R12 (about 4" of fiberglass, call it 3.5", pardon me, call it 100 MM fiberglass batt).

    Pat, am I totally off-base, or is your house well-insulated? And if so, was that per the local building code at the time or did you do that on purpose?

    One of my friends is an architect, and he says you get your LEED certification here for being 30% better than code. By my calc Pat's past that.

    Oh: 1760 yards in a statute mile, 2000 in a nautical mile, 640 acres to the square mile. That's etched in my brain, but so are the lyrics to the Gilligan's Island theme song. I'd judge them to be about equally useful.
     
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  9. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Actually that is his ceiling, so it is quite substandard for my climate. But his walls, at R17, are good.
     
  10. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    Couple of comments.

    The trend toward reusing shopping bags is taking over (mercifully) in much of N.America. I spend time in Northern Canada, and in tiny bush towns way off the beaten track, you find the bulk of the folks walking into the store with clothe bags. Even the oldest most grizzled pensioned miner uses clothe bags. It has been a remarkable transformation.

    We have a long way to go, but this is a good start.

    By the way this thread shows that by doing simple things, and sharing simple ideas there are changes that we all can make that make a difference, thank you.
     
  11. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    Excuse me while I try to land my Air Canada 737 (?) on a drag strip near Gimli MB, because I have run out of fuel because we did a calc in Imperial Gals, converted to US gal, then converted to Litires, and then converted to LBS and finally to Kilograms. (True story,,, in general!)

    Or how about our mars lander, Feet per second is close enough to meters per second isn't it? All a tax on our stupidity!
     
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  12. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney EditProfOptInfoCustomUser Title

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    1760. 4840. 640.

    It's all very easy. Just remember:
    22 yards in a chain.
    10 chains in a furlong.
    8 furlongs in a mile.

    Yards in a mile:
    8 * 22 * 10 = 1760.

    Square yards in an acre:
    1 acre = 1 furlong x 1 chain
    220 * 22 = 4840

    Acres in a square mile:
    8 furlongs x 8 furlongs = 8 furlongs x 8x10 chains. = 8 x 8 x 10 acres = 640 acres.

    No, I didn't look it up. Just takes a bit of medieval history combined with a bit of horse racing.

    Fun fact for those of you who can't fathom* cricket: the wickets are 22 yards (1 chain) apart.

    I grew up in the metricized English educational system but my height is measured in feet and inches and my weight in pounds**.

    * 6 feet. ;)
    ** Was stones and pounds until I moved to the USA. 1 stone = 14 pounds. In the UK I was 12 stone. Now I'm 200 pounds***.
    *** No, my math isn't wrong. The USA has been bad for me. :D
     
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  13. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Did you do this in the past year and get the regional utility incentive ($1200 for the first few thousand folks, less for later adopters)?

    And can you take the 30% federal tax credit?

    I did, and it has seriously reduced electric usage this winter. Though the record warm winter is partially responsible for that too.
     
  14. dg1014

    dg1014 New Member

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    A family member and I built a duplex a few years back. Both sides are totally identical down to the very last detail. The common wall is 12 inches think for insulation and sound deadening purposes.

    Due too some unforseen issues ( the county building inspector died didnt have a replacement for 4 months) they remained unoccupied.

    We decided to experiment. For this experiment we left the thermostat in one unit at 68 degrees. Never changed it.

    The other unit we set to be 68 degrees for 12 hours. Overnight it was set to 60 degrees.

    Other than once a week to check on them over that four months no one entered the units. That way the test was consistant.

    The utility bill for the unit that was consistantly kept at 68 was always 15% cheaper than the one that was programmed to stay cooler at night.

    Both units had identical high efficiency rated forced air heating units as well.

    Based on that alone one has to assume that it takes less energy to maintain a constant 68 degrees. Than it does to allow it to cool over night rebuild that heat in the morning and maintain those temps over each period
     
  15. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    That is interesting, and I must add seems very counter intuitive. I assume gas heat? What kind of Delta T are we talking about, on average? Are you absolutely convinced there is no other outside influence such as a badly installed duct that escapes notice, or a hole in the insulation that goes un-noticed? South facing glass, one unit getting more (or less) passive solar gain? More wind loading etc?

    An better controlled experiment now would be to reverse the situation. Heat the other constantly, and turn the other down at night and see what the results might be.

    Icarus
     
  16. dg1014

    dg1014 New Member

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    Both gas heat. Both identical high efficiency lennox forced air units.

    No difference in solar gain between them whatsoever. No holes or poorly installed equipment either.

    Windows are all intalled identically There is no south facing glass in either unit.

    Unfortunately I cant reverse the situtation and redo the experiment. Both units are occupied at this time.
     
  17. Politburo

    Politburo Active Member

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    You paid to heat an unoccupied building for 4 months? Sorry, it's just too convenient a story for me.
     
  18. radioprius1

    radioprius1 Climate Conspirisist

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  19. spiderman

    spiderman wretched

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    Very interesting indeed. I might have try an experiment myself. Thanks for the information.
     
  20. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    "There is no south facing glass in either unit."

    If that is the case, then one unit must have one wall south facing and the other have one wall north facing I am assuming that if neither have south facing glass, then the common wall must run East/West. Depending on where you are located, one could imagine that the south unit picks up significantly more heat from the sun, while the north loses more.

    I am not arguing your observation, just that there must be some explanation as it goes against everything I know about building envelope heating and cooling.


    It does beg the question why you heated both units so warm for four months however. Certainly keeping them a ~50 or even a bit cooler would have been much cheaper, and indeed would have used considerably less energy.

    PS (Edit) From the energy start web site : " It is a common misconception that it takes more energy to heat up a cold house than it does to keep a house warm all the time. Turning down the thermostat will always save energy, as will turning up the air conditioner temperature setting. Heat moves from hot to cold, and the rate of heat transfer increases with greater temperature differences between inside and out. Smaller temperature differences between your house and outside generally means you’ll lose less heat (or air conditioning) from inside the house to the outside. Therefore, you will save energy by only heating or cooling as much as necessary, for the occupants and time of day. "

    Somehow, some where, there is something we are missing from this equation. I suspect in the real world this would be very hard to replicate. So many issues come into play, not limited to, sun/shade, wind/shelter, relationships to paving, trees etc. Additionally, if you have two occupied structures but with different occupants, the energy loads would very likely be different.

    I think we are going to have to chalk this up to Area 51 unless we can figure out the source of the anomaly.

    (PS I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest, so unless anyone can add something useful I suggest we accept it as it is).
     
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