"Come on Honda, you can do better"

Well other than Toyota I don't see any other companies designing a hybrid system. Obviously shows just how hard it is to design one. I'm assuming Honda have invested so much in their system that they just can't bring themselves to pay good money to use Toyotas system like other manufacturers do?

My gf's Civic is two years old in March and she's considering the Insight as a replacement. I'll let you know after a long test drive if it's any good.

 

Am I the only one who thinks it looks waaaaaay too much like the original Insight?

 

I just don't understand the harsh criticism. Sure I chose the Prius over the Insight, but I would take the Iinsight over a non-hybrid any day. Considering the alternatives I do think Honda is making an effort. Sure, it is a relatively new design and the bugs need to be worked out. What else can be expected?

On another note I feel the same about Ford and Nissan. I say go hybrids go!:cheer2: I'm looking forward to EVs as well.

 

I think Honda should delay the launch and optimize further on what they can.

 

Another dropped ball from Honda. They need to redesign their hybrid system. Ford's Fusion hybrid has this thing beat by a mile.

 

But isn't the Ford hybrid just the Toyota system built under licence?

 

I am seeing comments that hybrids do not work comparing CR-Z to 20 years old Honda. Obviously they were made by people who are unable of differences in mild/assist/full hybrids.

Honda IMA is giving hybrids a bad name.

 

I have to say yes and no. Yes both ford's system and toyota's HSD share some parts, but there is enough differences that Ford doesn't label it toyota's HSD.

Ford's Hybrid (the FFH) has a different inverter, different sized motors, different sized battery, but uses the same transmission. The concept and the layout is toyota's, but alot of the parts aren't.

 

The harsh criticism is coming from the sheer fact that a car 20 years old gets better MPG and is faster! Honda is trying to dress a turtle up as a rabbit. It's not going to make is fast.

The Prius is (most likely) going to have the same 0-60 as the CRZ and NO ONE is calling the prius sporty! I come to this conclusion:

is that they both have the same hp per pound
CRZ 2600lbs/122hp=21 hp/lbs
the Prius 3000lbs/134hp=22hp/lbs...

I know that horsepower does mean everything, but I also factor in the power of the electric motors (toyota has honda beat) which provides the low end torque. I can't see anything in the specs that would make the CRZ sporty. all I have to see is the price. if it clocks in between 10-18k then I will give Honda a break because of the lower price point (there are few cheap sporty cars).

 

There's no point making hybrids which are less efficient than traditional models (same goes for EV's) - unless you're an American manufacturer just trying to get the tax credit...

 

The ford hybrid is ford's design and doesn't use toyota parts in the fussion. Ford and Toyota traded diesel technology for hybrid technology. That is why no patents are violated. Nissan is directly using toyota hybrid technology, as will Mazda.

GM, Mercedes, and BMW are combining R&D for hybrid technology. They have both a flywheel type hybrid like honda, and a parrelel serial like toyota. GM boosts the milage on their big silvarado hybrid over 30%. BMW has a flywheel type hybrid on their new active hybrid 7 that not only improves acceleration but gets 25% better fuel economy. They all get bad fuel numbers compared to the prius, but the tech is moving forward.

 

Well I stand corrected! when I took a FFH for a test drive I looked under the hood for the toyota's stickers, there weren't any on anything i could see (like the inverter or any of the electrics in sight) I know ford and toyota had a patent sharing deal, ford also holds the transaxle patent that toyota uses.

 

My understanding is that Ford developed their Hybrid technology independently of Toyota, realized that there might be patent issue with Toyota and cross licensed Hybrid technology from Toyota. See here.

Rumple

 

Much of what have been leveled at the CR-Z can be said of any other automaker of cars 20 years ago vs today:

• Technologies then such as lean burn in ICEs and the TDI have a harder time to pass EPA regulations.
• Stronger bumpers and airbags are now required (a good thing, BTW)
• The public is demanding faster 0-60 times
• The 55mph speed limit was just repealed in the US and automakers would increasingly move from economy to performance.
• Only 5% of US new cars have stick shifts (as opposed to 50% in Europe)...unless it's a full hybrid, manual tranmissions save gas.
• Between 1988 and 2007, the average US vehicle has gone from 3000lbs to 4000lbs.

While the CR-Z team could be convicted of bad design, the list above would work against any retro vehicle of any automaker....the CR-Z is at least 700lbs heavier than the CRX Si.

 

It's simply a bad design from the start, The CR-Z is a two seater with less horsepower and is lighter than a Prius, but gets far worse gas mileage. If you can't meet the standards of sporty of "yester year" why would you think that would be acceptable today. When there are other Car Cos pumping out more fuel efficient designs that are sportier. They should have saved themselves the embarrasment and the R&D costs.


All the things you listed are obstacles that all other car manufactuers have been able to over come. Why Can't Honda? because it's a "retro" design? that sounds like excuses to me.

 

This should have been Insight II. It is designed for mass production without exotic aluminum frame.

 

That's a good point. Prius has to overcome more than that because it offers more options not available on CRZ or any other IMA hybrids.

- Sunroof + Solar Panel
- Heated seats
- Park Assist
- Radar Cruise Control + Crash Assist

All these add weight or consume electricity which lowers MPG. Yet, Prius is able to get 50 MPG which is more than the original Insight CVT -- converted to today's MPG.

It is amazing what 2010 Prius offers. It has the features of a modern luxury car while beating MPG of a very light basic 2 seater hybrid.

 

by now, it is obvious to all manufacturers that the consumer is more than willing to pay the extra money for a hybrid. Prius sales have pretty much confirmed that.

so, take Ford and Toyota out of the mix both of which have excellent hybrid products out there which means all the rest still have not figured it out. Honda which has been at it as long as Toyota...well, lets face it. they are definitely not at the same level... Ford has gone beyond them.

so, to say its easy to put a hybrid on the market is wrong. to say that other manufacturers are not doing it because we wont pay the extra money is wrong. at this point, the only conclusion we can really make is that other manufacturers simply have not figured out a way to do it at a competitive price.