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Enginer PHV kit: a business case?

Discussion in 'Prius PHEV Plug-In Modifications' started by Philosophe, Dec 16, 2009.

  1. Philosophe

    Philosophe 2010 Prius owner

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    Having just noticed the current pricing of Enginer (PHEV 2KWH Kit for $1,495.00 and PHEV 4KWH Kit for $2,295.00 + $136 shipping), I’ve been spending the lasts days reading through all the info I could from their site, Enginer threads on PriusChat and such.

    I’ve seen a lot of comments on the expected fuel economy with the PHEV pack but not real documented, empirical evidence, a kind I’m used to from the PriusChat forums.

    So… beyond the environmental impact of burning less gas (at least in the car, I don’t know the exact environmental costs of building these batteries), is there an economical business case in buying a 4kWh Enginer kit?

    Please share your comments and knowledge to improve the calculations. Any empirical evidence will be welcomed to change the theoretical figures with real ones. This said, my objective here is not accuracy but rather finding what are the ball-park figures. :)

    SOME AVAILABLE INFORMATION FROM ENGINER

    The PowerPoint presentation available at Enginer.us states:

    ADDED COSTS

    The life expectancy of the batteries is said to be 6-8 years “in generalâ€. This would be $304-405/year ($2295+shipping/6-8 years).

    The car will also need to carry 120-180 Lbs at all time. Without being able to quickly find available data, let’s oversimply and make a “rule of threeâ€:
    Base Prius + driver: 3042 lbs + 180 lbs driver, EPA at 4.7 L/100km (50 MPG)
    Prius + Enginer kit: 3342-3402 lbs --> 4.88-4.96L/100km (48.2-47.4 MPG)
    A 3.7-5,6% increase in gas costs*.

    Using the EPA assumption of 15,000 miles/year, this is a 26-39L increase/year (6.9-10.3gal). As of 31 Dec 08 (source: [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_and_diesel_usage_and_pricing"]Gasoline and diesel usage and pricing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] ), this corresponds to:
    - In the US ($1.65/gal): USD$11.39-17.00 / year
    - In Canada ($0.75/L): CAN$19.50-29.25 / year

    *if someone has a better and more accurate way to compute the additional energy cost of added weight, please stand up!

    And, of course, you have to add the cost of electricity:

    Going with a 4KWh pack, assuming that one would use 75% of the available power, including power loss from converting electricity to chemical energy, to electricity, jumping the voltage to 240V, to chemical energy, to mechanical/kinetic energy (this may be too generous?), it would take 3kWh to recharge, per day. Assuming 6 days a week, 50 weeks a year, this is 900kWh.

    At a national US average of $0.12/kWh (source: Electric Power Monthly - Average Retail Price of Electricity to Ultimate Customers by End-Use Sector, by State ), the cost is $108.
    Here in Quebec, at CAN$0.08/kWh, this would be CAN$72.

    TOTAL: -USD$423 to –USD$530 / year of added costs, for a 6-8 years life expectancy, or about -CAN$414 to –CAN$530 (-CAN$322-429 + -CAN$20-29 + -CAN$72)

    GAS SAVED

    This becomes tricky as Enginer.us information is a bit elusive (probably understandable considering this is still new technology).

    Even Priuschat forums don’t provide (yet) very detailed, reproducible empirical data. Reports range from 65-99 MPG (2.6-3.6 L/100km). If we assume those numbers apply to the first 20 miles (32 km), this would save a maximum of :
    -32 mixed km using the pack
    -6 days a week
    -50 weeks per year
    -Being 9600 km/year at 2.6-3.6 L/100km instead of 4.7 L/100km
    = 451L at EPA rating and 250-346L , an economy of 105-200 L /year
    = 27.8-52.9 gal; USD$46-87 / year, or CAN$79-150 / year.

    CONCLUSION

    The net savings of the Enginer would then be between -USD$484 to -USD$336 / year, or -CAN$451 to -CAN$264 / year.

    If we go by the Enginer.us information of $200-300 / year of savings (1 charge per day; ie no charging at work) (CAN$211-318):

    The net savings of the Enginer would then be between -USD$330 to -USD$123, or -CAN$319 to -CAN$96.

    What do you think? I remain to be convinced; I would really like to buy this pack before the end of the month! :cool:

    QUESTIONS THAT REMAINS

    -Will the battery pack capacity stay the same for its whole life?
    -In cold climate (-15 to -20°C here in Jan-Feb), what will be the real life impact on the efficiency of the system?
    -In real life situation, what is the best/worse distance/speed/patern to gain the maximum out of the pack? Assuming a most efficient driver/operator, who is the best/worse candidate for the Enginer?
     
    #1 Philosophe, Dec 16, 2009
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  2. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

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    I tend to think that with most of these technologies (Hybrids, PHEVs, EV's, etc) that there is not a pure financial business case for them and until gas hits a very high dollar amount, it will remain that way.

    That said, there are many things that there aren't business cases for that are still worth spending money on. How about a nice car stereo, jewelry for your significant other, or farm fresh produce. I doubt any of things could pass a financial business case test, but they certainly would be considered "worth the money" to many people.

    And as far as PHEV's, you need to do it because you want to, and you found something that you can afford. Forget about the "payback".
     
    #2 ericbecky, Dec 22, 2009
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  3. Philosophe

    Philosophe 2010 Prius owner

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    I forgot to mention that Enginer specifically says in its PowerPoint presentation that the buyer will save money with the kit.
     
    #3 Philosophe, Dec 22, 2009
  4. banshee08

    banshee08 Member

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    I completely agree with EricBecky on this one. I am a huge audio fan especially in my cars and they are worth it to me. When considering if Hybrid or PHEV would make your money back, you also have to consider what is most import to you. If it is a financial sense of the purchase then the Prius will be a bad business case for almost anyone. I purchased my Enginer 8KWh system before this current discount and think of all the emission not coming out of my car and I think it is worth it. I drive in EV mode about 80% of my 66 miles everyday.
     
    #4 banshee08, Dec 22, 2009
  5. banshee08

    banshee08 Member

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    Eventually you will. It all depends on how many miles is put on the car.
     
    #5 banshee08, Dec 22, 2009
  6. Philosophe

    Philosophe 2010 Prius owner

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    Have you been able to find the emission from the battery/kit production and the emissions from your electrical grid production (coal, petrol, nuclear, hydro?) and compare it to your effective saved gas with the kit?

    From my readings, Enginer buyers' decisions seems to be more emotional than rational... I would like to prove Enginer's claim that the kit is good for your wallet and/or good for the planet.

    I estimated that my 2010 Prius TCO (total cost of ownership) (for 8 years, 155,000 miles) is about the same as a current Yaris (which was my previous car). I should save about US$19,000 compared to a Camry or an Accord. Note that this is at Canadian gas prices (currently 3,68$US/gal in Montréal... could be worse: currently about 7$US/gal in western Europe with currency conversion,[part is due to the bad US currency]).
     
    #6 Philosophe, Dec 22, 2009
  7. linuxpenguin

    linuxpenguin Active Member

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    I understand your original question was related to power plant emissions, but I figured this was a good point to mention too.

    Use of OEM EV mode (that is, all electric drive at slow speeds using the Toyota provided method) will increase emissions because when the EV mode is canceled it creates a huge spike in emissions since it will exit under load. Argonne National Labs has confirmed that vehicle emissions are increased by a factor of 8 to 12 times when the gasoline engine does come on. I like to say that it's a weeks worth of emissions in 15 seconds every time you step on it in EV mode and exit the mode. I suspect this happens frequently for Enginer style conversions using OEM-EV mode since 12 amps from the DC/DC converter is too little current to keep up with EV mode under acceleration (typically +100 amps).

    Increased emissions is the suspected reason that Toyota did not enable the EV mode button on the 2004-2009 Prius in the US (tougher emissions standards).

    No, unless you drive your car in all electric mode without using the gasoline engine at all during the drive--which is almost impossible with a 12 amp DC/DC converter (or you are /extremely/ careful when switching to said gasoline engine--eg: exitting EV mode while completely stopped and allowing the gasoline engine to run for several seconds before gradually accelerating) or unless you drive the vehicle without using EV mode at all just like a stock car you will not be decreasing vehicle emissions--ironically, you will be substantially increasing them (counter intuitive I know).

    I believe the official figures quoted for MPG on Enginer's website are assuming the use of OEM EV mode.

    If you really want to decrease emissions and aggressively use electric mode you'll need a more powerful conversion system like Hymotion, Plugin Conversions or EETREX.

    Andrew
     
    #7 linuxpenguin, Dec 22, 2009
  8. brad_rules_man

    brad_rules_man Hybrid electric revolutionizer

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    Yeah, I love this thread it brings up many important issues. I would like to point out that the batteries seem very manageable if your careful. I think that in 6 years if you had a few packs failing, you could order just the required packs to replace. Doesn't sound too scary to me.
     
    #8 brad_rules_man, Dec 23, 2009
  9. banshee08

    banshee08 Member

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    That is good to know if the emission increase on EV mode exit, then most hypermilers using the pulse and glide method are the worst of the emission polluters of them all. I pulse and glide all the time before having the engineer system. Fortunately for me the road home are rather flat that I can use EV mode to start from a stop. Yes the converter is only actually about 10amps but the battery supplements the current I need to get the car to the 35 mph and then I glide from there and let the enginer pack recharge the OEM battery. Works rather well for me since I use 2 converters and 8kwh.

    As for prius being about the same cost of a Yaris on TOC, I cannot see how that can be. It would be pretty hard to get over the $7000 to $8000 difference in base price. Not to even mention the added cost of more expensive maintenance and the higher cost of insurance at least here in California.
     
    #9 banshee08, Dec 23, 2009
  10. banshee08

    banshee08 Member

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    The purchase is both emotional and curiosity. I believe that there are such things as hobbies and this is definitely one of them for me. With gasoline at $2.90 here in So. Calif., I don't think I can save the conversion cost back until like 7 years down the road.

    I would be interested in the comparison of emission in creating the battery/parts for the Enginer kit and emission used to convert crude to gasoline for consumers. The use of fossil fuel to dig/drill for crude and transport the crude and not to mention then refining to petro and then transport of the gasoline to the gas station for consumers. I am curious to see which produces more emissions?? I honestly don't know. But I think this is the closest I can get to driving a EV car at this point, at least with a EV or PHEV I have the option to charge the car with Solar energy at my work place or if need be use coal or natural gas powered electricity.
     
    #10 banshee08, Dec 23, 2009
  11. linuxpenguin

    linuxpenguin Active Member

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    Heh, if you're looking at emissions for producing the actual conversion itself...well lets just say that the system is manufactured primarily in China where they don't have emissions regulations like here in the states. I don't have any hard figures for you but you can probably imagine they aren't too good =).

    I do seem remember that there was a shortage of lithium ion batteries back during the Chinese Olympics because the government shut down lots of factories around then to keep the smog within "acceptable" limits so that athletes didn't choke (they shut down lots of other factories and shipping lines too, to be fair)...I wonder if there will ever be such thing as a Chinese Air and Resource Board? =).

    Andrew
     
    #11 linuxpenguin, Dec 23, 2009
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  12. Philosophe

    Philosophe 2010 Prius owner

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    Yaris: TCO $55,776, of which $30,600 is for gas only (46tons CO2)
    Gen II Prius: TCO $59,000, of which $21,000 is for gas only (31tons CO2)
    HCH: TCO $56,750, of which $23,200 is for gas only (35tons CO2)
    Gen III Prius: $55,600, of which $17,800 is for gas only (26tons CO2)
    Camry: $72,500, of which $37,300 is for gas only (56tons CO2)
    Accord: $63,200, of which $33,600 is for gas only (50tons CO2)

    The maintenance costs and insurance costs differences don't have a big impact (less than 1000$ each for the car life). This is using real life fuel consumption from users at fueleconomy.gov. It assumes that gas prices will continue to rise at the same rate as during the past 8 years.

    If you want to look at it this way: I had the choice to buy a $30,000 car with $20,000 of gas, or buy $30,000 of gas to put in a $20,000 car... Guess which one I chose? :)
     
    #12 Philosophe, Dec 23, 2009
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