Quick Spin: Nissan Leaf the tip of mass market EV spear

We're in complete agreement, of course. My whole thing is purely about production cars. Cars that ma and pa six pack can boogie down to the dealer and purchase. And drive home with a full warranty, etc. As EVs were around well before gas cars at the turn of the century (the century before the last!) I'm definitely a Johnny-come-lately in that regard.

Absolutely. There are several Rav4EV drivers with well over 100,000 miles on their packs. The've lost a bit of range, but the cars are still very useful for many tasks even though the packs would be considered "used up" but the traditional standards.

Quite true. But the LEAF promised to be damn-near the ideal Rav4EV replacement. It will have about the same range (100 miles) that really is the sweet spot spot between cost/weight and usable range. And it is basically what I've been wanting every since I bought our 2006 Prius - an electric Prius-like car! Look at that thing! I can't imagine a car that is closer to being an electric Prius than this thing. Same basic shape and configuration. Lots of gee-wiz electronics. And it is even ugly! It has it all.

None of the other "availble" cars will offer the great balance of features that this one offers. The Tesla S is way the hell too big for my needs/desires. The Fiskar still drags around a gas engine. The Volt has the engine, plus has too little interior space and no hatchback! I want my electric Prius!

 

I haven't paid close attention to this thread but FWIW, as I posted awhile, Carlos Ghosn (CEO of Nissan-Renault) was interviewed by Charlie Rose ~a month ago. Go to Charlie Rose - Home and search for his name. He does very briefly mention leasing of the battery.

Transcript at http://www.charlierose.com/download/transcript/10718. It's around ~26:30 in the video that he talks about the battery leasing.

 

Hmm, so with the Nissan Leaf, you buy the car but lease the batteries, right? So, technically this does not prevent a clever mechanic from cannibalizing the Leaf and installing the powertrain into a different car, such as a Prius, for example, right?

(and, I suppose the mechanic could then install the Prius drivetrain into the Leaf. haha)
Heck, come to think of it, I'm surprised an aftermarket company hasn't made their own Yaris hybrid by installing a Prius HSD into a Yaris.

 

I don't believe I've seen a figure for the lease fee. I'm guessing that at
~$400/year the cost of "fuel," electricity + lease fee, would roughly
equal the gas cost for a Prius averaging 50 MPG for 10K miles @ $3/gal.

Suppose a Leaf gets in an accident and is declared to be a "total"
wreck/loss.
* Is the battery also "totalled," even though it was not damaged?
* Does Nissan call you up and threaten legal action if you don't
return the battery? Where is it? How do you get it back?

 

Yup, leasing the battery will cost as much as gas.

Like most leases of cars and other valuable things, you are required to insure its full replacement value. When a regular ICE leased car is totaled, the insurance company pays the leasing company.

To take a phrase from the NRA, when they make owning a battery a crime, only criminals will own batteries. I think there may be bigger things to worry about than the repo man taking your battery. And, of course, if the battery fails often and if the manufacturer is not supporting the batteries, the black market for stolen batteries will go up. I wouldn't park my car on a dark street. $2000 to $10,000 piece of equipment (battery), useful in the Leaf, for home backup, for making a plug in kit for a prius, easily detachable from a car, - you know the consequences. And if your battery gets stolen a few times, the insurance company will cancel you. Now you don't have insurance, you can't get a leased battery. Yikes.

 

No, "total" losses are still salvaged for parts. That is how the insurance company helps offset the cost of replacing your vehicle - a junkyard will still pay a significant amount of money for a wrecked car that has been deemed "unfixable".

For example, you will find many cars with salvaged titles on them, and used parts from wrecked cars can be had for a fraction of the price of a new one.

autobeyours.com, for example, specializes in repairing totalled Priuses and supplying Prius parts pulled from wrecked vehicles.

As far as replacing a damaged battery - either your insurance company will pay for the loss, or the insurance cost will be included as part of the lease cost.

 

There seems to be an assumption that just because the battery is leased, that it will be fully supported, improved, replaced etc. While I also assume this to be the case, it certainly doesn't have to be! Pretend that after two years the battery fails. Nissan has figured out how to get back out of the EV business, and since your battery lease is now up, they take the battery back, and have no obligation to offer a replacement. Now you've got this great little EV with no practical way of powering it.

I'm just sayin.

I'd rather own a battery pack with a warranty. Pay the money up-front (like I've done for my electricity via my solar system). Leasing it means the customer has almost no control of the future.

 

RAV4 EV was sold at $42k.

If Nissan Leaf were to sell at that price would you buy it? Especially when you know 4 years later, there will be a newer version with twice the range. Nissan may keep the same range and reduce the price to $34k (calculated at $700 per kWh).

 

I've been thinking about this battery lease business. As pointed out
earlier in this thread, there is considerable room for "funny business"
involving the battery; real thefts, fake thefts, etc.

Lets say for some reason a Leaf owner gets really pissed at Nisssan
for whatever reason. As the end of a lease period -- annually,
biannually, surely not monthly -- said owner thinks, "Screw it, I'm not
going to renew the lease. What can they do. I've moved twice in the
last year, they can't even find me. And what, like they'd come and get
it anyway?"

I'm thinking that the battery itself would have built-in security shut-off
circuitry. When you renew the lease you get a code string that has to
be input to the battery through an MFD screen keypad, or maybe thru
a USB port. I'm not sure if the leasor/owner would do it or the dealer.
Anyway, no updated code, battery can't be charged, or something like
that.

Do you think this, or something like it, would necessarily be a part of
the leased battery package?

 

Would I buy a factory supported, modern, faster, more powerful, connected super version of the dorky little SUV that I have now... for the same price that I paid for what I have now? Hell yes. Please recall that I DID buy the Rav4EV at $42k, so I'm not sure the question is relevant for me??

The question is:
Would you pay $42,000 for the whole car... or would you rather pay $30k for the car, and $12k+ for the battery lease that leaves you with zero value at the end of the lease.

Just grabbing numbers out of the air here.

 

I guess the answer depends on how much Nissan will lease the battery for. I agree with you about ownership. I have never lease a car; always bought them. EVs my not depreciate at all due to the demand right? You can sell it now and may still make a profit.

If I am not mistaken, RAV4 EV had $13k tax credit however, Leaf will only have $7.5k tax credit.

 

I may be wrong, but I believe there were $1,000's in fed credits for new purchasers (not used) of the RAV4-ev that ultimately brought the cost down into the 30 thousands price range ... which is dang attractive now

.

 

Correct. I had to write a $42,000 check, but after three years of incentives rolling it, the final cost was close to $32,000. So only about double what the gasoline version cost.

 

AFAIK Tesla is planning to rent the larger capacity batteries for the Model S. Although the pack is swappable it is bulky & heavy so it's not going to be stolen from the car. The thief will just steal the entire car.

 

They just drive off and strip off the battery then left the car on the street.

 

Half of your sentence is in the present tense, and half of your sentence is in the past tense. ???
Are you referring to an actual incident that already occurred?

 

Better yet. Disable the car by disconnecting the car from the charging station at work. You know for safety reasons anybody must be able to disconnect the battery (like if something went wrong and the battery is smoking). They can't design the disconnect out.

The owner comes back, there is not enough charge to go home so he or she take a taxi home and plugs in the car.

Then, early morning, come back . . .

And that is why it is a bad idea to have a $12,000 easily removable item in a car and relying on a charging station.

 

thievery . . . that's funny. Can you imagine! In stead of some dude with 99 octane breath ... folks go around with floor jacks, stealing $10K battery packs . . . I think it's an improvement

.

 

Yea. Instead of teenagers toilet papering the teacher's cars in the faculty lot in high school, they just go and turn off all the charging stations in the faculty lot right before a snowstorm.