Quick Spin: Nissan Leaf the tip of mass market EV spear

Does anyone have any predictions on whether we will see other automakers licensing this technology from Nissan? Does Nissan have a bunch of patents on EV technology that other automakers would be forced to license?

I am glad they are focusing a lot of attention on the regenerative braking. Maybe Toyota could learn something from them. (meaning that Toyota should double the capacity of the regenerative braking)

"These vehicles show off Ghosn's belief that pure EVs are the way to go – no plug-in hybrids, no conventional hybrids, no hydrogen, no compromises. And it should be interesting to see if this strategy works." - I wish him the best of luck. Really, I do. But I think Plug-in hybrids are going to dominate in the future.

Based on the stunning exterior looks of the Leaf (in the eyes of the American general public), I sure hope that once Nissan is done testing the Leaf (after the Leaf has been available for at least a year), they offer the EV powertrain in more conventionally-styled cars. The leaf does not look "terrible" to me. But I don't think the general public shares that same perspective. I sure hope it does well though. I hope it does really well. (I'm really hoping that the photos we have seen do not do proper justice to the real looks of the Leaf. I'm hoping it will look great when we see it)

Now this looks good! Why can't they put it in the Versa and sell it???!!!


Clicking on the links goes to Nissan website, which shows more photos:

 

I've seen the leaf in person, and am still not crazy about it's looks (especially the rear). Frankly, if it looked like their Versa mule (throw in some more aero tweaks of course) it'd appear more to me.

 

Why not offer both versions and appeal to more customers?
Maybe the Leaf will get better mileage than the Versa due to it's aerodynamics; and still remain Nissan's EV leader.

 

Exactly. Ya gotta walk before you can run.

In general I love what Nissan is doing here, and I've had the privilege of speaking to a few people who are deeply involved with this project. What I do *not* like is the plan to sell the car at a price "competitive with other similar cars" and then lease the battery. :sigh:

I find it very odd to hear people on a Prius board complain about the looks of the Leaf. To me the two cars are about equally ugly in different, but similar ways. My guess is that just like the Prius, if the LEAF is the great car I think it'll be, that the looks will grow on me.

It happend for me with the EV1, with the Rav4EV, and with the Prius. So I'm sure it'll keep happening. Back when I used to buy cars based on looks, I had great looking cars that were expensive and didn't make me all that happy. Now that I'm buying cars for more practical and ethical reasons, I have ugly cars that make me happy.

 

This is a trick to make you feel like the car is priced like " a competitive priced car" without the battery. You must lease the battery because the car won't move without it for a monthly fee and then you pay more in the long run than paying the battery up front. Second they do not have to offer a warranty on the battery if it is leased.

 

Yup!

Nissan is making a big deal about how they can make an EV for a reasonable cost. But that cost is not going to include the most expensive part of the car - the battery. And I wonder how the whole thing works. You miss a payment on the battery and will they come and reposses the battery and leave the car? Leasing the battery also means that you MUST keep leasing the battery from Nissan in order for your car to work, and what limits to they have on the cost of that lease?

Mostly I'm scared because of what I've gone through with EVs before - when the whole car was leased.

 

Lets be fair to Nissan. What is the first question everyone asks about the Prius: "how long does the battery last?". For the Prius, this question is easily explained as not an issue, but Nissan with a new EV technology takes the question of "What if the battery fails?" and makes it an advantage to the customer because the battery is leased so that their early adopters are comforted.

Now, if the batteries do last as long as the car for the EV, then it is a nice income stream for Nissan.

 

They have the next gen battery pack in the pipeline (4 years) that would double the range of the current gen.

I think they are doing the early adopters a favor.

Leaf may be discharging the pack with the aim of lasting only 4-5 years because they will eat the cost of first gen. It is a sound strategy but very risky. That 2nd gen better not be delayed or should be as good as expected.

 

If the lease price is also doubled, what good is that?

 

Don't forget too, that they are in talks with utilities - those utilities want those old packs after they've lost capacity for grid-balancing and will pay to get them.

 

Isn't that what electricity is? . . . or are you saying electricity already is a standard fuel.

Simple. Remember the RAV4-ev? . . . the EV-1? Proprietary battery technology. Say the Leave is HUGELY popular ... and you're leasing the battery. WHAM up goes (in theory) their proprietary battery cost TO YOU. That's where the RAV4-ev'rs are today ... hangin' in the breeze. Even if someone were able to jiffy pop some kind of make shift battery pack for the RAV4-EV, it'd be another stretch trying to make it compatible with Nissan's battery management system. So if Nissan does the same thing (suddenly wants $10,000 for a pack, as an example), they'll have you by the short 'n curlys so to speek and most ev'rs remember that it's happened before.

I wouldn't get my shorts too bunched up regarding a battery lease (though I don't like it). Look at your typical apartment lease ... or your car lease. You're paying for a part of the value of the whole. Thus, when your car lease is up, you pony up the value based on what life is left in it. Bring it back with only 100 miles on it an the car's value is High. Put 200,000 miles on it and you owe a bunch. I see the cost of a battery lease as up front value not yet paid, and so (though I hate it) if that's what it takes ... I'd bite.

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I am trying to be, and I think I am. I give them all the credit they deserve. But in my book. leasing the battery is a huge detraction. Ask any EV driver what they think of the idea, and you'll hear a similar response.

New EV tech? I agree that it is modern, but new? I'm currently driving a car that was designed for the 1996 model year. And it is still running on the old-tech batteries that I purchased with the car eight years ago. I keep hearing this "early adopters" phrase. The folks who buy the Nissan aren't early adopters. The early adopters were driving EVs 10+ years ago. Many thousands of them.

Yes, and a nice income drain for the drivers.

Again, I have to ask about the phrase "early adopter." The people who ARE early adopters are driving production EVs today. And every one of them I've heard from does not want this "favor" forced upon them.

An excellent point. I agree that it will be just dandy to have the pack leased if it fails early. But honestly? This is not the reason that Nissan will lease the packs. It is not the reason that GM leased the EV1s. Car companies want to make money. They don't do that by creating a situation that is best for the customer over what is best for the company's bottom line. Those two ideals rarely go hand in hand.

Correct! The residual value of the "used" packs is significant. And just like when you rent instead of own a home... every dollar that goes out the door stays out the door if you lease the battery pack.

 

aw, c'mon Darell ... you know that you 1990's EV'rs aint the real early adapters. There were DIY'ers back in the 1970's ... junky lead acid rides with a measly 20 mile range ... you too, my friend are just a johnny-come-lately
admit it!

 

The pack is also going to be useful past its 'full charge' life. It should be able to keep driving with reduced range for as long as 10 years.

The leasing issue scares me, but it is mostly a fear of the unknown. Nissan could do people a favor and improve the packs, then change them all out charging the same or less. Nissan could also screw the customer, taking them back after the lease ends and charging more for the next one. If you do not take the new deal, you can not drive!

I do not think utilties will take used car packs to do load leveling, it sounds good at first but really makes no sense. There are utility scale batteries made with much cheaper chemistry and even more durable then EV packs. Taking a used battery has too many variables for a utility to deal with, in fact phone companies shed batteries with life left in them for the sake of reliability.

Sodium-sulfur battery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium_redox_battery]Vanadium redox battery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

I understand how this may feel like a Deja Vu. Toyota VP was just quoted saying that EVs today cost less than the 90's but still more than ICE only car.

There will be alternatives if one does not want to lease battery. Tesla roadster is available to purchase. Model S and Frisker Sedan is also coming out for purchase.