Journalist experiences Volt's electric-to-hybrid transition, says it needs improvement

That would be what?

The goal of "nicely under $30,000" is no longer talked about anymore.

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Efficiency of the plug-in option will be measured in terms of MPG. Comparing that to the regular version of Prius is simple, making it very easy to see the value.

Toyota isn't looking for a "best" trophy, they want lots of sales. An affordable option that provides a generous MPG boost should bring that volume.
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yeah, those are issues that were found on few cars, sometimes just on ONE car, those were all in the start of the production run


time to go get myself a new floorjack and then go to work

 

That's what Honda went for and where did that leave them? Honda in a short amount of time is going to loose the second place spot (in terms of hybrid sales) to Ford. It will boil down to PR. If a Person sees 230 mpg vs 100-130mpg they will associate the increased price with "quality". If toyota is able to get similar efficiency from their PHEv for less then Toyota will have tons of sales.

 

You know, I wish Honda would put their hybrid system into all their vehicles. I'm a fan of low priced vehicles. I put all my money into savings so I can retire early instead of buying $100,000 cars to impress my friends/colleagues. We've been looking for an SUV because we always have to haul stuff around and for some reason I like the Honda Element. Wish it was a hybrid! Come on Honda!

 

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No, their goal was $20,000 using an ASSIST design.

You get a greater return from a FULL design that about costs $2,000 more.
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Honda's intent was to pull in higher sales (which it did at first, but insight sales seems to have fallen off), hence the hybrid for everyone mantra in Honda's commercials. They went to a great extent to target potential prius buyers.

 

did anybody watch the documentry "who killed the electric car". seems they had a good start with the ev-1 and they destroyed it

 

Perhaps I am reading this wrong, and I admit to not closely following Volt development, but I didn't think the Volt had or would need a PSD. It's just a serial hybrid with no direct mechanical connection between the wheels and ICE.

On the road to the full EV, a plug in serial hybrid is farther along than the plug in parallel/serial hybrid. For a non-plug in you can't beat the parallel/serial, but in full EV mode there efficiency loss to the mechanical ICE connection. A PHEV Prius may actually spin up the ICE at highway speed. The non-PHEV does. Assuming both come to market in the near future, which one will be easier to convert a full EV?

 

The 2010 Plug-in Prius ICE does not spin up to 60 mph.
The 2010 non plug-in Prius ICE spins above 46 mph.

A PHEV and a full EV are different concept vehicles.
Converting a PHEV to a full EV should not be considered, I think.

Ken@Japan

 

Even with out the ICE spinning, some energy from the motor will be lost to the mechanical connection with the engine. On an equal platform, (body, battery, motor, weight, etc.) the serial PHEV will have a longer EV range over the parallel/serial because of that.

The EV conversion is a consideration if your goal is to ultimately move away from ICE cars. I'm sure the PHEV Prius will have better fuel economy than the Volt once the plugged in charge is gone. Toyota could even give it a longer EV range, but when the time comes for a full EV, HSD (not the trade name) is as useful to the car as the ICE hooked up to it.

 

We can not assume there will be no change to the Prius PHV in term of PSD mechanical connection. We do not know the details of it yet.

Volt's generator can be connected to the wheels and act as a motor too, it is not only connected to the ICE. We do not know the efficiency loss of the Volt having two electric motors spinning at the same time. In some situation (high speed acceleration?) both motors are needed.

Power inverter is more important for the EV range. Prius has a very efficient IGBT inverter that routes electricity. It is on 3rd or 4th generation of refinement. Do you know what kind of inverter the Volt will be using?

There are HSD vechicles with fuel cell stack. ICE is not a requirement to be a full HSD hybrid.

 

I read that and I was wondering the methodology behind having two electric motors on the same axle. I guess for improved performance or to take the strain off of the other motor to prevent overheating. I know that has to kill EV range once int a state like that (which it shouldn't stay like that for long), can anyone throw a wild guess at how long it would take the system to rebound from that (return to its "normal" state of operation?).

I can see a small glitch in that system: Say a driver is accelerating hard to merge onto a highway, for what ever reason the driver has to jam on the brakes suddenly during the acceleration. If the system is still in the two motors propelling the car, there will be no "regen" braking (a good amount of energy lost that could have been recaptured) and the help of the regen braking system to stop (will the stop be longer without regen?)

This also leads me to ask why didn't gm put a higher output motor as the primary motor? It was probably expense, but maybe there is another reason....

 

The most common HSD on the road is in the Prius, and is what most will think of when HSD is mentioned. I was using HSD to refer to parallel/serial hybrid.

I am aware of the fuel cell HSD. While it meets the definition of a hybrid, and Toyota calls it an HSD, it is a completely different system than what is in the Prius. It has two sources of electricity, but only one source of motive power. Its general drivetrain layout it is closer to the Volt than the Prius. It is just a fuel cell EV.

You are right, we can't assume what will or will not do with the PHEV Prius. We can speculate though. With the low announced range, the P-Pri will need to maintain a high fuel economy when off the grid charge. It can't do worse than the standard Prius. If the fuel economy with full charge is only slightly better than the standard Prius for the average commute, people won't pay extra for it.

The parallel/serial design has proven itself effective in the Prius. Why abandon it when you are going to have a short EV range? With the publish range, most people will be using gas with it at some point during the day. Even with an EV system as effiecent as possible, the grid power will still provide them with a benefit. Outside of 40 miles, the Volt will lose to the Prius. Toyota should play to their strengths on their first PHEV to market. But for a PHEV in which the consumer will only need gas power once a week or less, the parallel/serial design will likely need to be abandoned.

So far, everything I've read states that the Volt is series design. If the generator is physically connected to the wheels, then so is the ICE, and it is no longer just a series design. If we can't assume what Toyota is going to do because they haven't stated anything, how can we assume GM will pull a switcheroo on their announced design.

There should be a direct path for electricity to go from the generator to the drive motor, and it could supply a boost for acceleration. A cable connection isn't a energy leech like spinning gears in a transmission.

Does the Pruis have trouble going to regen braking after heavy acceleration? All it's M/Gs and ICE were just being used to propel the vehicle. Why would the Volt have a problem (besdies being a GM)?

 

I think there is not enough torque at certain (high) RPM or the e-motor design is not efficient at all RPM. Tesla tried to put 2 gear transmission in their roadster at first.

I also don't know how they are engaging / disengaging the generator. Probably with a clutch.,,,

 

PHV-13 = 100+ mpg city car for a LOT of people, and 50+ mpg car for extended drives.

The trolls will deride it, but I think Toyota is spot on.

 

FCHV is a hybrid, not EV. FCHV use the same power inverter, electric motors and control logics including regen braking, etc. The only difference is the Fuel Cell stack instead of ICE+PSD.

FCHV has a small HV battery to "buffer" peak demands and allow the stack to be downsized; the same idea with Prius ICE downsizing.

What is low? What is too high for the range? For someone with 20 or 30 miles commute, would they pay extra for the Volt? Or will they go with Prius PHV and utilize all available 13 electric miles and keep $10k+ in the pocket? It will be interesting to see.

Prius PHV has a bigger battery pack so it should be faster. For this acceleration performance reason, people can justify paying extra for it; even when they are lazy to plug it in.

People pay extra for V6 over I4. For a few grand, people will also pay for 4kWh pack over 1.3kWh pack.

Because Volt engineer are openly discussing it without going into details. They have to use a clutch to engage or disengage the generator to power the wheels. They are spinning it as that actually gain efficiency by using both motors. I don't buy it.

 

There is absolutely no way that design gains efficiency. It can provide better performance and/or take the strain off of the first(primary) electric motor. I've got to see a diagram of how this is going to be set up. If both motors are engaged then there is absolutely no way the battery is being charged... the power is going from the ice directly to the wheels, by passing the whole battery and most of the electrical system... That would make a volt a hybrid in more than one sort of way... a series/parallel hybrid that is also a phev...

That sounds like a mess especially with that clutch thrown in for good measure. looking back, maybe this is why they chose the I4 instead of the I3... maybe the 3 cylinder was not strong enough to move the car, but we all know a good 3 cylinder can be a great generator! I remember back when the volt was still that cool looking car, that gm wanted to go with a 2 cylinder (but emissions killed that idea, but that was probably a lie). Everytime I think to myself, "GM might actually get it right" then I read something else and it goes right out of the window. I really like the concept of the Volt, but the execution of the idea seams to keep getting marred.

Who wants to take bets that it will be the same crappy clutch that is found in the cobalts(my friend has a cobalt and she has been through 2 clutches and she is actually a great driver!!!)?

 

{Since the current [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Automotive_Engineers"]Society of Automotive Engineers[/ame] (SAE) definition of a hybrid vehicle states the vehicle shall have "two or more energy storage systems both of which must provide propulsion power, either together or independently"}

Found that under the Wiki entry for the Volt(the source link was broken.) Going by that, likely out of context, quote, a greaser diesel is a hybrid. It has two energy storage systems; one tank of diesel and one of WVO. Both provide propulsion power. On the other side of the coin, the traditional diesel-electric locomotive is no longer a hybrid by that definition.
Fuel cell cars are EVs at their core. There is only one motive power source, the electric motor. First I've heard of the battery allowing fuel cell downsizing. I thought it was needed because current cells have a lag in increasing or decreasing energy output. Which would be a problem when merging on the highway. They just use hydrogen to store their required electrons. Regardless of what it is called, or who makes it, the fuel cell car will not become a major replacement of personal vehicles.

Now, I only used HSD as short hand for a parallel/serial, ICE/electric hybrid here to differentiate it form the serial system.

Low in comparison to the Volt. Basic PHEV design falls on a sliding scale in terms of overall efficiency. At one end is the non-plug in hybrid, and the other the BEV. The successful hybrid focuses on improving the ICE efficiency. The BEV, on range. Where a PHEV falls between these two ends depend on its intended EV range. The longer the EV range, the more important EV efficiency becomes. The shorter, the hybrid system should be the focus.

GM supposedly choose the 40 mile because a majority of Americans travel that or less each day. We scoffed at the EREV monikier, but it is accurate. They are really trying to bring to market an EV that people aren't scared of. I hope they do bring it to market, and are successful. It will increase the acceptance of the pure EV in the future.

I'm sure Toyota will have a great design, and will successful with the PHEV Prius. It's just that, hopefully, the HSD(see above) will go the way of the straight ICE in the future when it come s to personal vehicles.

Could you post a link? In my search yesterday, I only found reference the Volt being a serial hybrid.